TTK?

[greenberetdelta]

What is time to kill?

[wOOtbEEr]

1. How long it takes to kill someone. In PS1 you would have to unload a whole clip with some weapons before your target went down. Other games have instant death flying out of every barrel.

2. Google is your friend

[Artimus]

Just right

[Jomo]

Google doesn't even have to be your friend. The forum automatically links TTK to the wiki with an explanation

[greenberetdelta]

Originally Posted by Jomo

Google doesn't even have to be your friend. The forum automatically links TTK to the wiki with an explanation

i did read it before the thread but the def still left me wanting

[Jomo]

I'll give you everything you could ever want

[Aberdash]

Originally Posted by greenberetdelta

i did read it before the thread but the def still left me wanting

The wiki tells you what it means. What else is there to know?

[Ratstomper]

Are you asking specifically what the average TTK is?

[vVRedOctoberVv]

@Ratstomper

I'm pretty sure he meant the definition of the term. Somehow, he looked up the definition, but was still confused as to its definition ))))

[Ratstomper]

Originally Posted by vVRedOctoberVv

@Ratstomper

I'm pretty sure he meant the definition of the term. Somehow, he looked up the definition, but was still confused as to its definition ))))

I just wanted to make sure we aren't misunderstanding him...

[TAA]

Originally Posted by greenberetdelta

What is time to kill?

As wOOtbEEr mentioned, TTK is a measure of how long it takes to kill a target with a weapon. It can be discussed in quantitative terms (ie. it takes 0.5 seconds to kill a target that is not wearing additional armor with this weapon, but it takes 0.6 seconds with this other weapon). Most often it is discussed in qualitative terms (eg. I think the TTK is too short).

I explain in this post why I think TTK matters. Quote below:

Originally Posted by TAA

My views are these:

• I believe that games with longer TTK favor different sets of skills to games with shorter TTK.
  
• Games with longer TTK are more rewarding to the individual skill of players.* It rewards players who are able to make headshots quickly and accurately. It makes it safer for players to cross open ground that is being covered by snipers, and safer for players to charge around a corner that is being guarded by the enemy. It is safer to do these things because less players are able to make the accurate headshots required to quickly put another player down. This promotes more aggressive play, where aggressiveness is defined as players being more willing to cross open ground or charge into guarded areas.
  
• Games with shorter TTK are more rewarding to teamwork.* If an entire squad can be gunned down by one person with a single assault rifle clip, then it is imperative that players move together in a more coordinated fashion. Infantry formations that minimize friendly fire and maximize arcs of fire on the enemy become more important. Crossing open ground that is covered by snipers requires assistance of cover (eg. smoke or friendly armor), or flanking maneuvers to take out entrenched enemy. Entering a room that is guarded by enemy requires techniques such as coordinated entry by a squad via multiple access points, or the use of grenades prior to entry.
  
• Games that have a TTK that is too low or too high are both frustrating to beginning players. If the TTK is too low the beginning player will get more kills, but they will be too hesitant to move into more dangerous areas lest they immediately die. If the TTK is too high then the beginning player will hardly ever win any close encounters, and will get frustrated when they empty half a clip or more into an enemy only to have them turn around and kill them.

* Note that high TTK also rewards smart play and team work, and low TTK also rewards individual skill - its just that in my view the sets of skills that are favored the most are different in both types of games.

[Sirisian]

I have my own definition on my site here. In summary though I find a good way to look at TTK is:

TTK is a function of how many choices a player should be able to make at any given time in a game

If you think about that in terms of a situation it'll make sense.

These two lines do not support one another:

Originally Posted by TAA

Games with shorter TTK are more rewarding to teamwork.

Originally Posted by TAA

If an entire squad can be gunned down by one person with a single assault rifle clip, then it is imperative that players move together in a more coordinated fashion.

A squad is 10 people. If one person could gun down a whole squad you're essentially at the lowest possible TTK where spray and pray would be effective. This is outside of the area I would say that teamwork is necessary. In fact staying as far away from your squad-mates so you don't get killed moving in a group would be better. A low TTK where a single player is killing more than say 2 people without reloading is detrimental to any form of teamwork. With a high TTK as you mentioned the expected behavior of teamwork is two players are guarding a door (as in the example on my site) and they would easily kill a player running into the room. However, with a high TTK that player could retreat with some damage and throw a grenade inside. If he had skill he could damage both players and go in for the kill. Or throw a smoke grenade in, turn on his thermal vision, and get the kills. Basically as you said requiring an extra level of skill. A low TTK is a very difficult gameplay mechanic to argue for when you want both individual skill and teamwork. You get both with a relatively high TTK.

[TAA]

Originally Posted by Sirisian

A squad is 10 people. If one person could gun down a whole squad you're essentially at the lowest possible TTK where spray and pray would be effective. This is outside of the area I would say that teamwork is necessary. In fact staying as far away from your squad-mates so you don't get killed moving in a group would be better. A low TTK where a single player is killing more than say 2 people without reloading is detrimental to any form of teamwork. With a high TTK as you mentioned the expected behavior of teamwork is two players are guarding a door (as in the example on my site) and they would easily kill a player running into the room. However, with a high TTK that player could retreat with some damage and throw a grenade inside. If he had skill he could damage both players and go in for the kill. Or throw a smoke grenade in, turn on his thermal vision, and get the kills. Basically as you said requiring an extra level of skill. A low TTK is a very difficult gameplay mechanic to argue for when you want both individual skill and teamwork. You get both with a relatively high TTK.

I think we have very different opinions on the matter. You see, I dont consider focus-firing to be the pinnacle of teamwork. Look at your very own example:

• Two guys guarding a room.
• One enemy attempts to walk in through the door.
• In a low TTK game: the enemy gets killed by either defendant. You say this means there is no skill involved.
• In a high TTK game: the enemy gets shot, doesnt die, and has time to retreat back out of the room. The only ways for a defendant to kill that enemy are: (a) get a headshot, or (b) focus fire him with his buddy.
• Given these two possibilities you suggest that it is obvious that games are better with a high TTK. It promotes both skill and teamwork.

I maintain that you are coming from a very limited perspective of what teamwork is. Focus firing is by far the most basic method of teamwork. It is simple maths: in a 2vs2 fight, if 2 people gang up on one of their 2 opponents the match will quickly become 2vs1. Put another way:

1. Imagine a 2vs2 fight. Players a+b vs players c+d.
2. If each player has 100 health, and each player can output 10 damage per second, then it takes one player 10 seconds to kill one other player.
3. If players a/b focus fire on player c before killing player d, then they will win the fight. Why? Read on.
4. Lets say both pairs of players start firing simultaneously. Players a/b fire at player c only. Player c will die in 5 seconds, then player d will die after the next 5 seconds.
5. On the other side lets say that player c fires only at player a, and player d fires only at player b. After five seconds player a is on 50 health, player b is on 50 health, and player c is dead (killed by the focus fire).
6. In the next five seconds player d (the only one left on the second team) can only deal out 50 damage. He can only kill either a or b (both are on 50 health), but he cannot kill both. Players a/b will ALWAYS win the fight if they focus fire.

Every tank driver who is worth anything knows how to do this. You dont even have to communicate. You just fire at whoever your buddy is firing. I dont even dignify this with the label teamwork as its just such a basic principle in any game.


Take the video below: If low TTK removes the need for teamwork, then why are these guys here even bothering? Shouldnt they just be charging at the enemy?




Let me reiterate what my point of view is.

• I think that both high and low TTK are matters of preference, but that if the TTK is either too low or too high that the game becomes a less satisfying experience for beginning players.
• I believe that both high and low TTK games reward skill and teamwork, and that a player is rewarded for using skill or teamwork to slightly different extents in each.
• I believe that the higher the TTK, the more individual skill is favored in that headshots or hitting weak points becomes more necessary.
• I believe that the lower the TTK, the more that working together as a team becomes necessary. Not because they will prevent you from dying, but because you will die and because you cant win alone.
• I believe that if you find a happy medium not only is the game great for beginning players, but that both skill and teamwork requirements are balanced.

[Accuser]

Originally Posted by TAA

Let me reiterate what my point of view is.

• I think that both high and low TTK are matters of preference, but that if the TTK is either too low or too high that the game becomes a less satisfying experience for beginning players.
• I believe that both high and low TTK games reward skill and teamwork, and that a player is rewarded for using skill or teamwork to slightly different extents in each.
• I believe that the higher the TTK, the more individual skill is favored in that headshots or hitting weak points becomes more necessary.
• I believe that the lower the TTK, the more that working together as a team becomes necessary. Not because they will prevent you from dying, but because you will die and because you cant win alone.
• I believe that if you find a happy medium not only is the game great for beginning players, but that both skill and teamwork requirements are balanced.

Very true.
PS1's high TTK rewarded some forms of teamwork, but made it extremely difficult for an individual to accomplish anything. Your team is getting ready to push down an enemy-held hallway and you're going first? Sucks to be you, because no matter how skilled you are, you're going to die and you won't kill anything.

But low TTK can reward teamwork as well. A group of soldiers all chasing down one enemy or aiming at one target will be easily flanked and wiped out by a smaller enemy force. If the former group had coordinated zones of fire, the latter may have only taken down one or two troops before being spotted and neutralized. With a high TTK, the larger group would need no such coordination, since the smaller group simply wouldn't be able to kill fast enough to overcome the enemy hitpoints, even with the element of surprise.

It all comes down to personal preference. Low TTK rewards reaction time and situational awareness, high TTK rewards accuracy and coordinated fire. Both have elements of individual skill and teamplay, just in different ways.

With that said (and keeping in mind the PS1 example above) I STRONGLY prefer low TTK both for individual and teamplay reasons.

[Sirisian]

Originally Posted by TAA

• Two guys guarding a room.
• One enemy attempts to walk in through the door.
• In a low TTK game: the enemy gets killed by either defendant. You say this means there is no skill involved.
• In a high TTK game: the enemy gets shot, doesnt die, and has time to retreat back out of the room. The only ways for a defendant to kill that enemy are: (a) get a headshot, or (b) focus fire him with his buddy.
• Given these two possibilities you suggest that it is obvious that games are better with a high TTK. It promotes both skill and teamwork.

You're overgeneralizing the results for a low TTK. This is very common when thinking about low TTK. You got the high TTK basically spot on. So the more general way to view it is:

• Two guys guarding a room.
• One enemy attempts to walk in through the door.
• In a low TTK game:
  • The enemy is killed by either of the defendants
  • The enemy kills one of the defendants then is killed (The fallen defendant is revived possibly).
  • The enemy kills both defendants
• In a high TTK game:
  • The enemy gets shot by one or both players, doesnt die, and has time to retreat back out of the room
    • Many options open to the attacker, but the defendants have suppressed the attacker. He could try to throw a grenade or set down a turret as he runs in. The defendants if they want could throw a grenade out the door at him as he retreats.
  • The defendants focus fire and kill the player with or without headshots
  • One defendant gets a few headshots killing the attacker before he has time to retreat
  • The enemy gets multiple headshots and one defendant and is killed. (The fallen defendant is revived possibly).

Originally Posted by TAA

Given these two possibilities you suggest that it is obvious that games are better with a high TTK. It promotes both skill and teamwork.

As you can see a high TTK allows more options for teamwork while still allowing individual skill when playing. Sustained fire is rewarded for headshots and by teammates meaning both attackers and defenders feel they made a kill or lost fairly. There's no sense of "oh that was luck with that 1 headshot or those 3 body shots as he came through the door".

By the way skill in this case is not simply aiming. I hate when people equate skill to simply putting your cursor on the enemy's head. That's a very small part of it. Moving into place and using utility items is a much bigger part of it. Knowing which weapon to use for instance is important. (Like not charging a Jackhammer user hiding behind a wall and using grenades to fish him out).

Originally Posted by TAA

Focus firing is by far the most basic method of teamwork.

100% Agree. That's actually the second sentence on my site. A high TTK rewards focused fire. If two players are fighting at range and target a single player they can both put bullets into the enemy while still allowing him the choice of finding cover. (Just like in Planetside 1, you had multiple people shooting at a single target). A low TTK removes these teamwork decisions for focused fire by allow individual aiming to be the only variable outside of weapon choice.

Originally Posted by TAA

Take the video below: If low TTK removes the need for teamwork, then why are these guys here even bothering? Shouldnt they just be charging at the enemy?

The low TTK is not the reason for teamwork. That game has very long ranged combat. It has always promoted gameplay akin to America's Army where players are forced to move slowly and be on the lookout for campers. This creates some of the slowest gameplay ever as indicated in that video. He didn't do "anything" for essentially 12 minutes.

Also notice how many choices he could make in that game. He could change movement by crouching or prone and zoom or shoot. That's it. The game doesn't allow complex gameplay thus a allowing a high TTK would not benefit it in the slightest except to allow players to retreat. In PS2 (and Planetside 1) players have complex loadouts with utilities and abilities that they can use for situations. Without the time to use them in combat they are useless.

A low TTK always values individual players that are actually making kills. It has no effect on teamwork since players that don't see the enemy are not inputting anything into the attack since it happens so rapidly. This is also seen on the enemy's side who often does not see the attacker before they died and has no possible reaction once the two players view each other. Their only option is to shoot or die. They can't even get help from a teammate if they are walking in first.

A high TTK allows a team on either side to make tactical choices and assist each other without the worry that they will be trivially killed before making any meaningful choice once combat begins. Big difference between "I just got shot by a guy up on the wall" versus "I just got killed when I walked around the corner. I don't know where he is."

Originally Posted by TAA

I think that both high and low TTK are matters of preference

I wish it was that easy. The TTK totally changes the gameplay and how players play a game and how teams function with one another. As I said on my site it's the difference between a medic reviving a player over and over versus a medic healing a player as two groups attack one another. Especially for a team moving between cover. Taking a bullet or two should be expected in the game. It should always require sustained fire to earn a kill. If a player is running and can't find cover then someone can just single shot from a range and pick off the players.

This is mostly coming from Planetside 1. For those unfamiliar you could easily sit on a wall and tap people with a bullet or two while they run between cover. It wasn't game over, nor when you were putting a bullet or two into the players did it feel like you would earn that kill if they had died. When you do line up and actually kill someone you knew you had that kill. It wasn't because of some random shots.