How to fix the AV MAX

[psijaka]

EDIT - this opening post made redundant due to GU7 changes; see post 5 for details.

We all know that people who run dual AV MAX are a rare breed, which is no surprise as some of the weapons have serious shortcomings. Let’s take a look; I’ll use the NC Falcon as the reference point as this is the weapon that I have a lot of experience with, and it is actually pretty decent. I do have some experience of dual Pounders and Comets, so am able to make a valid comparison.

Against Armour:

Falcon has high burst damage, slow reload, with a tolerable amount of projectile drop. Velocity 80m/s, gravity 1.5. The Falcon is pretty decent against armour; the high burst damage/slower reload enables you to pop in and out of cover.

Comet is medium damage, medium reload, but zero gravity. However, velocity is significantly slower (60m/s) and the projectiles are highly visible. The Comet is not too bad either; the lower burst damage/shorter reload time means that you have to expose yourself to return fire somewhat more than with the Falcon, but it is still possible to use cover effectively. Having zero drop helps a lot against stationary targets; perhaps the easiest of the AV weapons to use; but this is balanced by the slow projectile speed which makes it trickier to lead shots, and the shorter overall range (300m instead of 400m).

Pounder has low damage, fast fire rate, slightly higher DPS BUT it has slower projectile speed (70m/s) AND higher gravity (2) than the Falcon, making it tricky to use. Almost double the drop at long range. The low damage, faster fire rate with 2 rounds in the mag mean that you have to expose yourself to enemy fire for a longer time, which is a serious handicap. True, the DPS is somewhat higher, but I’m not sure that the trade off is worth it. But the biggest handicap is the stupidly high projectile drop. The combination of slower velocity AND higher gravity really gimps the weapon, IMO.

All weapons have a 5 second projectile life, which effectively sets their range, and low splash damage and radius (thankfully).


Against infantry (this is at medium range; dead zone issues make them all pretty unreliable at close range, where AI weapons rightly dominate).

Falcon damage is 750, so first of all if you are running dual you have a guaranteed one salvo kill if you can get both shots on target. The projectile suffers from drop but is hard to spot, although it does leave a smoke trail, so your intended victim often has no chance to take evasive action. I’ve “sniped” infantry off Watchtower spires with Dual Falcons countless times .

Compare this with the Comet, which has 550 damage. Whilst a dual shot will sometimes kill infantry; this is not guaranteed as they may have certed into upgraded armour to increase their health. This is somewhat compensated for by the higher fire rate and zero drop, but another problem is that your intended target can see the slow moving and highly visible projectiles coming, so they have time to duck out of the way (I’ve definitely noticed this; people dodge the shots far more than with the Falcon).

Pounder has very low damage, only 375, so no chance of a kill (takes 3-4 hits). This is supposedly compensated for by having 2 shots in the mag, but the fire time is 0.5 seconds, so the chances are, your target will have reacted to the first shot before you have a chance to land the second. Also, the smoke trail from the first salvo obscures the target; it does not fully clear before you can take the second shot half a second later, so you are firing partially blind. The DPS, and splash damage DPS, is somewhat higher, but not significantly so; high burst damage is king when tackling infantry.

There is no point in us considering duels between AV MAXes; how often does this happen?

So I would rate them in order of effectiveness: Falcon, Comet, Pounder.


Now; what to do about it.

First of all, leave the Falcon as it is. This is a pretty effective weapon against armour AND infantry.

Now the Comet. I would consider giving the Comet the same damage and reload times as the Falcon, so the only differences are in the projectile velocity, trajectory and visibility. The Comet then gets the guaranteed one salvo infantry kill and the same ability to duck in and out of cover. The lack of projectile drop is balanced by the slower speed and the high visibility of the projectiles (this could perhaps be toned down slightly).

The Pounder is more of a challenge to balance. As a first step, I would give it the same velocity and gravity as the Falcon; this will help a lot. Furthermore, I would consider buffing the damage to say 450, and increasing the reload time so that it takes the same time to fire of the 2 round mag and reload as it does to fire one Falcon round and reload. Whilst 2 x 450 damage will only kill unupgraded infiltrators, this is better than nothing, and a dual hit will leave any infantry on perilously low health, enabling the Pounder user to finish them off with a single shot, or with splash damage. Somewhat more balanced than what we have now. Higher burst damage will help against armour too, and this regime would retain the Pounder’s slight DPS advantage, which is necessary to compensate for the reduced ability to duck in and out of cover .

[Ketadine]

The AV MAX will be (slightly imo) buffed today, in the upcoming update GU 7. I would prefer if they increased the AOE damage aria, not the damage itself, on all the AV MAX weapons so they at least make it a deterrent to infantry.

http://forums.station.sony.com/ps2/i...ate-07.117226/

[Koadster]

Originally Posted by Ketadine

The AV MAX will be (slightly imo) buffed today, in the upcoming update GU 7. I would prefer if they increased the AOE damage aria, not the damage itself, on all the AV MAX weapons so they at least make it a deterrent to infantry.

http://forums.station.sony.com/ps2/i...ate-07.117226/

Holy TR max nerf batman ! Cunts

[psijaka]

Originally Posted by Koadster

Holy TR max nerf batman ! Cunts

I'm really not sure that it is a nerf. The velocity and gravity (the 10 must be a typo) buffs will help a lot, and having 4 rounds in the mag will mean that you can unleash a lot of pain and then duck away to reload. DPS is about the same. Interested to try this out.

The Comet is the one that I think has suffered the most from these changes.

[psijaka]

Originally Posted by Ketadine

The AV MAX will be (slightly imo) buffed today, in the upcoming update GU 7. I would prefer if they increased the AOE damage aria, not the damage itself, on all the AV MAX weapons so they at least make it a deterrent to infantry.

http://forums.station.sony.com/ps2/i...ate-07.117226/

Wow; somehow I missed this! Makes my thread somewhat redundant! Here are the relevant parts :

•NC NCM2 Falcon
◦Reload: 2.5 seconds changed to 2.4 seconds
◦Max Projectile Velocity: 80 changed to 100
◦Projectile Gravity: 1.5 changed to 0.5 (wow, this will mean hardly any drop!)
◦Direct Damage: 750 changed to 675 (still a one salvo infantry kill)

These changes will make the Falcon an even more efficient infantry slaughtering machine, and the increased velocity/reduced gravity will make tackling armour even more of a pleasure, despite the slight damage drop.

•VS Comet VM2
◦Projectile Velocity: 60 changed to 90
◦Magazine Size: 1 changed to 2
◦Direct Damage: 550 changed to 350
◦Short Reload: 1.5 seconds (Short reload previously didn't exist. Long reload remains the same at 1.7 seconds

WTF!? Didn't see that coming. I have a bad feeling about this; looks as if they have turned it into the old Pounder with zero drop. I'll give it a try but can't help feeling that they have gone in the wrong direction here.

•TR M3 Pounder HEG
◦Magazine Size: 2 changed to 4
◦Projectile Speed: 70 m/s changed to 100 m/s
◦Projectile Gravity: 2 changed to 10 (must be a typo; hopefully they mean 1) EDIT - AFTER TESTING IT LOOKS AS IF THE IDIOTS REALY HAVE INCREASED GRAVITY!
◦Direct Damage: 375 changed to 325
◦Short Reload: 1.25 seconds changed to 1.75 seconds
◦Long Reload: 1.5 seconds changed to 2 seconds

Interesting. they've turned it into a spamming machine. The velocity increase and gravity decrease will help a lot though. Really not sure how this will work out, but it is an improvement at least.

Interesting times; I can hardly wait to give them a try. But did they really need to improve the Falcon against infantry?

[HiroshiChugi]

Originally Posted by psijaka

But did they really need to improve the Falcon against infantry?

Well, the NC MAX is supposed to be great vs infantry, I didn't think it needed an AI buff to the Falcon, but an AV buff... I always have a hard time vs vehicles even when trialing the dual Falcons...

[psijaka]

Originally Posted by HiroshiChugi

Well, the NC MAX is supposed to be great vs infantry, I didn't think it needed an AI buff to the Falcon, but an AV buff... I always have a hard time vs vehicles even when trialing the dual Falcons...

Well it is a buff and a minor nerf against armour. The increased velocity and lower gravity will help quite a bit at range, but the damage is slightly lower; I haven't done the maths but I wonder whether it will now take an extra shot to kill some vehicles?

[DirtyBird]

Originally Posted by psijaka

◦Direct Damage: 750 changed to 675 (still a one salvo infantry kill)

That all I needed to know

[psijaka]

Originally Posted by DirtyBird

That all I needed to know

Shorter reload time + faster projectile + lower gravity = slaughter time

[Qwan]

Wow this is very informal. I tried using the Comet AV max version, its ok, and like most AV weapons, a rear shot to most tanks will give you more damage. The problem that I have with the Comet is the projectiles are just to slow, any target over 50 meters, moves out of the way very easily. Against infantry the Comet is close to useless, up close you do little to no damage, at a range they dodge the shot. The only real way for the comet to score a infantry kill is for the guy to be standing with a wall behind him and he gets hit with splash damage from both rounds. The reload time is almost pains taking, firing at moving targets is almost impossible. But I talk to the alot of guys who use the Vanu max and they say its horrible all around, especially the Comet version. But I will agree that the reload time should be up graded this way making adjustments when firing at moving targets can at least get you in the ball part.

[Sledgecrushr]

Looks like the tr got the best of the buffs again. They can do 2600 damage before a reload. Vs get 1400 damage per clip and nc get 1350 per clip.

[psijaka]

Originally Posted by Sledgecrushr

Looks like the tr got the best of the buffs again. They can do 2600 damage before a reload. Vs get 1400 damage per clip and nc get 1350 per clip.

Yeah but with 4 rounds in the mag it's hard to duck in and out of cover when you are receiving fire. When using the Falcon I operate from cover, pop up, unleash a salvo, and then duck back down again before the tank has time to aim and fire. Then I change position a bit (whilst reloading) and repeat. Drove off 2 Magriders this way recently (killed 1); they didn't even get me with splash damage.

I will not be able to do this with 4 rounds to fire off; plenty of time for them to shoot a nova cannon round down my throat!

I'm not saying that what they have done to the Pounder isn't a decent buff, but of all the AV weapons, it was the one that needed it most. But it is wrong to base effectiveness purely on damage per mag, or even DPS.

[wasdie]

Originally Posted by Sledgecrushr

Looks like the tr got the best of the buffs again. They can do 2600 damage before a reload. Vs get 1400 damage per clip and nc get 1350 per clip.

Factor in the damage over time. The NC can put out that 1350 damage in a way less amount of time than the TR can.

I can often get away from a TR max. I don't see the same when infantry come up against a NC max.

[psijaka]

Originally Posted by wasdie

Factor in the damage over time. The NC can put out that 1350 damage in a way less amount of time than the TR can.

I can often get away from a TR max. I don't see the same when infantry come up against a NC max.

^ this. My victims often don't realise the danger they are in until they get 2 armour piercing rounds through the rib cage; dead. Really looking forward to playing the new Falcon with it's faster velocity and improved trajectory

[ChipMHazard]

Depends on whether or not the gravity change is a typo