Gunning Certification

Tapman · 2012-04-11, 01:46 PM

In the MMORPG.com interview Higby stated that Gunning will be a Certification-based role, knowing that I will be able to continue my favorite activity of firing tank shells while drinking a beer is very exciting. I want to know everyone's thoughts/ideas on the different things you could implement.

Mine so far:

- Advanced Targeting Systems including armor/shields remaining, a lock-on based diagnostic scanner to determine the scanned vehicle's load-out, and a spotting system for the gunner to mark targets that only show up for their driver and vice versa and can be prioritized manually or automatically based on pre-set conditions like least health remaining, driver-only or has-gunner first, closest, etc.
- Reload rate
- Granted access to use the "advanced weapons" that a driver can unlock, not necessarily more powerful but more a variety of strategic options for AV/AI/AA like a low-range flamethrower as an alternative to machine gun for AI (situational trade-offs)
- Enhanced Zoom
- Visual range detection via the Crosshair color, definitive color shift when out of range and varying shades of red for how close it is (I assume target distance in meters will be part of the HUD but this lets you keep an eye on your target)
- Decreased boot-up time for weapons systems when entering the gunner seat
- Gunner can hold a Single vehicle ammunition clip refill kit as an emergency reserve in exchange for a primary weapon which can be used for their own tank without getting out or can be deployed to a different vehicle.
- Ability to bail from a vehicle past the standard damage point-of-no-return

Goku · 2012-04-11, 01:54 PM

Something along the lines of a advanced gun that can only be used by a tue dedicated gunner would be nice. I'm talking being far more powerful then what you find on either the secondary or primary guns.

FredTomson · 2012-04-11, 05:55 PM

Originally Posted by Goku

Something along the lines of a advanced gun that can only be used by a tue dedicated gunner would be nice. I'm talking being far more powerful then what you find on either the secondary or primary guns.

That's more or less what Higgles told us was going to be in the game on Saturday night.

CutterJohn · 2012-04-11, 02:42 PM

Yeah, I spent a lot of time in the gunner seat of a tank, and it would have been nice to be able to focus on that activity more, be able to advertise 'Gunner LFW: Can do this and this and this". In PS1 the only thing you needed to be an optimal gunner was advanced targeting and a glue gun.

Tapman · 2012-04-11, 06:01 PM

Originally Posted by Goku

Something along the lines of a advanced gun that can only be used by a tue dedicated gunner would be nice. I'm talking being far more powerful then what you find on either the secondary or primary guns.

Situationally stronger. You can't have something that is unbalanced but there should definitely be trade-offs you can make on a logistical basis to potentially give you an advantage based on intelligence and whatnot.

Originally Posted by CutterJohn

Yeah, I spent a lot of time in the gunner seat of a tank, and it would have been nice to be able to focus on that activity more, be able to advertise 'Gunner LFW: Can do this and this and this". In PS1 the only thing you needed to be an optimal gunner was advanced targeting and a glue gun.

You needed something else, a damn good driver. Vehicles are constantly targeted and with the additional population I'm sure that the need for a good driver will only be increased. It also helped if you and your driver were advanced engineers.

I don't think gunners should have any say in an accuracy upgrade, if that exists at all it should be from a driver speccing it in their load-out and sacrificing something else to get it. The point of being a good gunner is that you wouldn't need your driver to spec into accuracy so they could get a more fitting sidegrade like damage-per-hit.

Goku · 2012-04-11, 10:04 PM

Originally Posted by Tapman

Situationally stronger. You can't have something that is unbalanced but there should definitely be trade-offs you can make on a logistical basis to potentially give you an advantage based on intelligence and whatnot.

Well from what I heard at PAX obviously isn't final, but these dedicated guns could be roughly 50% stronger compared to the regular primary gun. Don't take the number as being what it will be, but it will likely be far stronger compared to the primary/secondary. Higby sounded confident that this extra firepower plus the multi crew being experienced should be able to take on two solo tanks.

CutterJohn · 2012-04-11, 11:04 PM

Originally Posted by Goku

Well from what I heard at PAX obviously isn't final, but these dedicated guns could be roughly 50% stronger compared to the regular primary gun. Don't take the number as being what it will be, but it will likely be far stronger compared to the primary/secondary. Higby sounded confident that this extra firepower plus the multi crew being experienced should be able to take on two solo tanks.

Pretty sure what he's saying is that the single dedicated turret shouldn't be equal to or greater than the dps of both the primary and the secondary weapons, because it is easier to use. To remain balanced, its going to have to do somewhat less dps, because the gunner is a more effective gunner than the driver, being able to focus entirely on it.

Example.. Normal tank:

Driver gun - 100dps, 66dps effective(dudes gotta drive)
Gunner gun - 100dps, 100 dps effective.
Total - 166 dps.

So a dedicated gunner weapon should do 166 dps. If it did 200, it would always be superior to the driver/gunner combo, because the gunner will always be more effective at putting bullets on target than the driver.

Zulthus · 2012-04-11, 11:15 PM

Originally Posted by CutterJohn

So a dedicated gunner weapon should do 166 dps. If it did 200, it would always be superior to the driver/gunner combo, because the gunner will always be more effective at putting bullets on target than the driver.

As it should. Teamwork should beat solo killwhores every time.

Destroyeron · 2012-04-11, 03:11 PM

I'm thinking it'll mostly be more powerful weapons.

Xyntech · 2012-04-11, 04:01 PM

The impression I got from that interview was that the dedicated gunner slot variant for tanks would be an optional certification that tank drivers could use if they wanted to only worry about driving.

I like the idea of certs that improve your ability to be a gunner though. Sounds interesting. It would have to be stuff that didn't need to be part of the tank when it was pulled though, so no whole entire turrets or anything visual obviously.

Infektion · 2012-04-11, 04:04 PM

In the last interview with Higs, I believe I heard something along the lines of unlocking a gunner position, hopefully this plays out into the tanks... single manning/gunning the tanks is dull to me.

Blackwolf · 2012-04-11, 04:10 PM

Seems like they are paying attention.

The main reason for them opting to have drivers use the main gun was because they paid for the cert in the first place. If they could give drivers a cheaper cert for tanks that they don't have to gun (and provide such tanks for free if the driver pays for the main gun too), as well as providing gunner certs for those who want to gun, that would be cool. It would make less sense, however, if they tacked on additional cert costs for a dedicated gunner sidegrade though.

Specialty side grades might be improved accuracy and maybe even a trajectory imager that predicts approximately where the tank will be when your next shot hits. Basically a little blip showing where you should be aiming.

EVILPIG · 2012-04-11, 04:17 PM

The plan has always been to have the driver as the "main" gunner and to allow a second player gun the "secondary". The secondary gunner position is supposed to offer more variety and better weaponry. Now, additional gunners on vehicles is being considered as a sidegrade option.

If you want a "Gunner" to be something to cert in, you really have to think about what this does to the baseline. What would certing in "Gunner" do for you? Offer different weapons? Maybe. Make you a better gunner? Perhaps, but to make you a better gunner, they would have to make everyone a worse gunner to start with. If offering improved accuracy is on the table, accuracy in general will have to be nerfed to make it worthwhile.

Blackwolf · 2012-04-11, 04:42 PM

Originally Posted by EVILPIG

The plan has always been to have the driver as the "main" gunner and to allow a second player gun the "secondary". The secondary gunner position is supposed to offer more variety and better weaponry. Now, additional gunners on vehicles is being considered as a sidegrade option.

If you want a "Gunner" to be something to cert in, you really have to think about what this does to the baseline. What would certing in "Gunner" do for you? Offer different weapons? Maybe. Make you a better gunner? Perhaps, but to make you a better gunner, they would have to make everyone a worse gunner to start with. If offering improved accuracy is on the table, accuracy in general will have to be nerfed to make it worthwhile.

Good points. But what if you couldn't gun without the cert? Since drivers can man their own main cannon, why not require a cert for gunners, and give gunners equally powerful weaponry to help balance out that whole armor vs armor problem?

Since 2 tanks with 1 gunner each will always be more powerful then 1 tank with 2 gunners, even if both gunners have weaponry of equal firepower to the two enemy tanks. Twice the armor and two different directions to shoot at means the two tanks have more options for flanking and trading defense.

So if gunners had to pay 1 cert to jump into any gunner seat of any vehicle (this would be a 1 cert buys you everything deal), and were offered additional costs for sidegrades such as advanced zoom, trajectory prediction (a blip showing where you should shoot to hit a moving target, which may not be 100% accurate if the target changes direction) tighter CoF (if the game uses CoF), maybe steadier aim so that the barrel doesn't fly up and down when your driver hits a little bump. All of these things could be compensated for by skill and/or implants but are also optional as extra sidegrades. I might add that pilots couldn't purchase these sidegrades, their sidegrades might be more related to firepower, armor, shields, things that affect the tank's offensive and defensive power rather then the driver's accuracy or possibly even RoF.

Other possible upgrades might be allowing the gunner to perform in-vehicle repairs without exiting the vehicle. Whether or not the player is an engineer, he could potentially offer jurry-rigging and field repairs that are not quite as-good-as-new-but-good-enough types. Hell maybe the gunner with his cert allows his perks to affect the pilot as well, this would give drivers a huge incentive to carry gunners, and even pick favored partners.

Ailos · 2012-04-11, 04:37 PM

Accuracy should never be the subject of a debate in an FPS because hardware-wise, it should always be the same for everyone with the same weapons setup (weapon and addons/sidegrades). You missing something in an FPS should have much more to do with your aim sucking than your weapon being more nerfed compared to a 2-year veteran.

For this reason, I think gunners should be able to unlock additional sidegrades/different weapons for their positions (I like the flamethrower idea, or maybe unlocking specialized ammo, like AP rounds for chainguns or heavier ballistic rounds for AV cannons), not "higher accuracy".