Gameplay: Dedicated driver certification for MBT

Azren · 2012-07-15, 02:42 PM

Dedicated driver cert for MBT

I know that the developers of PS2 were playing with the idea of unlocking the main gun to the gunner with a cert, however to both reinforce the notion of having this option and to see how the community thinks about the details, I will write up my suggestion on the topic.

First of all, I belive that a cert that allows us to play as dedicated driver should be included in the game, preferably already at beta. It really is the best option to please the widest range of players.

Details

- Do not reduce any of the vehicle's stats when the cert is selected

- If selected, the tank turns into a 3 man vehicle.

- If only one gunner is present, he/she should be able to select which gun to fire. In this case both guns would follow the mouse cursor, but only one could be fired at a time (similar to how vanguards work in PS1). This option is not a big boost since we can already hot-swap seats instantly, more of a convinience.

- Make the "dedicated driver" cert avaiable without having to put any points into the MBT tree. This should be an option which lets you select a playstyle, not a reward along the road.

- To make it work with the Magrider, change the model a little, so it has a rotatable turret. This turret would be in a fixed forward position, if the "dedicated gunner" cert is not selected, but would function as a normal turret otherwise.

Here is an illustration about how it would look like:

Ravenclaw · 2012-07-15, 02:50 PM

I think dedicated driver cert should also bring few other minor benefits, like better manuverability and speed that stacks with the general manuverabilty/speed certs.

Perhaps also driver can get some additional UI features that boost awareness that only he can see, this will in turn help him improve his driving by being aware of threats not directly in front of him.

AzureWatcher · 2012-07-15, 04:31 PM

Wouldn't work. The magrider can already strafe left-right, which is why the cannon is fixed. This will give the magrider ungodly maneuverability.

People will still abuse the system by going in alone with a certed MBT and switch between the cannon and driver when he wants to fire/shoot. He'd also gain benefits of the buffs you mention as well.

I can forsee a lot of these guys parked on a hill or plateau and acting as artillery for l33t KDR.

Cuross · 2012-07-15, 08:53 PM

Well, I'm' pretty sure that they can take away the driver seat hotswap if someone wanted to be a dedicated driver. I rather like the idea of dedicated drivers because, well, to be honest, I haven't seen a shortage of vanguard, prowler, or even buggy drivers in PS1 these days haha. Now, before anyone says "Most of them are playing with friends", come on, do you really think that is going to stop some people from playing dedicated drivers in pick up squads? :P So long as the driver gets assist exp for driving, then I don't see a problem

And the Magrider already has ungodly maneuverability for a tank. I don't see why the left-right strafe can't support a designated driver and designated gunner, we have already seen it in PS1 working and I think the Magrider was a beautiful tank to gun for. Give them a third gunner or the ability to switch between chaingun/flak and the main cannon like the Vanguard and I just can't see the problem. They are a really squishy tank compared to the other two Empire's MBT's which is why they have that maneuverability.

Azren · 2012-07-16, 01:12 AM

Originally Posted by AzureWatcher

Wouldn't work. The magrider can already strafe left-right, which is why the cannon is fixed. This will give the magrider ungodly maneuverability.

People will still abuse the system by going in alone with a certed MBT and switch between the cannon and driver when he wants to fire/shoot. He'd also gain benefits of the buffs you mention as well.

I can forsee a lot of these guys parked on a hill or plateau and acting as artillery for l33t KDR.

The cannon is fixed because you can not implement controls on a PC where one man can turn, strafe and rotate the turret all at once. With the other tanks the strafe button is used for turning, but in case of the magrider it actually strafes like an infantry.

I do not see how this would increase their use as artillery platforms. We can already do that with the PS2 system.

Originally Posted by Ratstomper

A thought: Why not just give the main gun a little more wiggle room than it has now? Something that an independent gunner can aim, but has to shoot in the general direction the tank is facing?

Would not be much fun for the gunner, and it would take away the general purpose of this suggestion. At the price of needing a gunner to use any of the guns, a 360° turret should not be too steep.

Ratstomper · 2012-07-15, 09:22 PM

Sounds alright. Obviously the magider would have to be changed substantially...more substantially than I initially thought. If they can do that...

...then I'm good with it. I don't think it should give any added bonuses to the tank. The purpose is to allow people the classic MBT style of control, not make it "better" than the current one.

Originally Posted by Cuross

And the Magrider already has ungodly maneuverability for a tank. I don't see why the left-right strafe can't support a designated driver and designated gunner, we have already seen it in PS1 working and I think the Magrider was a beautiful tank to gun for. Give them a third gunner or the ability to switch between chaingun/flak and the main cannon like the Vanguard and I just can't see the problem. They are a really squishy tank compared to the other two Empire's MBT's which is why they have that maneuverability.

A thought: Why not just give the main gun a little more wiggle room than it has now? Something that an independent gunner can aim, but has to shoot in the general direction the tank is facing?

Figment · 2012-07-16, 07:16 AM

Originally Posted by Ratstomper

Sounds alright. Obviously the magider would have to be changed substantially...more substantially than I initially thought. If they can do that...

That's the problem, you don't think things through that are obvious.

...then I'm good with it. I don't think it should give any added bonuses to the tank. The purpose is to allow people the classic MBT style of control, not make it "better" than the current one.

Yeaaaah. Imagine you'd have to work harder as a solist to compete with MBTs that are properly driven and give up individual power for group power.

Ratstomper · 2012-07-16, 02:09 PM

The issue with giving a 360 degree turret is that it would make it significantly better than the driver=gunner version of the tank. A hover tank with a rotatable gun means the main gunner has an advantage over a fixed gun variant for being able to move the gun quickly (since the main gun moves with the tank).

Maybe it wouldn't be a huge deal. Hard to tell without testing it out.

Originally Posted by Figment

That's the problem, you don't think things through that are obvious.

Yeaaaah. Imagine you'd have to work harder as a solist to compete with MBTs that are properly driven and give up individual power for group power.

I suggest you check your butthurt at the door, friend. I'm here to help brainstorm to make the idea work; something I don't even plan to use. You we're wrong in the other thread and your posts here are no less incoherent or immature.

Azren · 2012-07-16, 02:47 PM

Originally Posted by Flaropri

My thoughts:
1. Asymmetric Balance is fine. While it might be a disappointment to some VS players, I don't think the Magrider NEEDS the option, and I could see it causing balance problems to implement on top of the extra animation/modeling effort. While balance could be resolved, it isn't necessary to go through those steps in my opinion. (Side note: I currently intend to play VS, so I'm not just saying this to limit a faction I don't like.)

It would not cause any balance problems. That is how they work in PS1, where they are very balanced, it would work in PS2 too.

Let the devs worry about animation/modelling effort, this should not influence this suggestion.

Originally Posted by Ratstomper

The issue with giving a 360 degree turret is that it would make it significantly better than the driver=gunner version of the tank. A hover tank with a rotatable gun means the main gunner has an advantage over a fixed gun variant for being able to move the gun quickly (since the main gun moves with the tank).

Maybe it wouldn't be a huge deal. Hard to tell without testing it out.

Gunner operated guns do not move with the tank, they are independent. If the tank rotates around, the turret will still point in the same direction.

The balance compared to the basic "drivergunner" variant should not be a problem. Don't forget, you lose half your firepower by chosing to be the dedicated driver, only with a third player can you match a "drivergunner MBT"'s firepower. Even then the 3 manned vehicle could still lose if he makes a mistake or the driver of the "drivergunner MBT" is good enough. The skill of the gunners influences the outcome too of course.

The only diffrence between Magrider and the other tanks in my suggestion is that it can strafe left and right (probably slowly). It was not enough to avoid damage in PS1 (other empires did area damage, so even a miss hurt), I think it will be the same in PS2. It remains to be seen of course, but this can be balanced by reducing firepower for example.

Flaropri · 2012-07-16, 03:29 PM

Originally Posted by Azren

It would not cause any balance problems. That is how they work in PS1, where they are very balanced, it would work in PS2 too.

Let the devs worry about animation/modelling effort, this should not influence this suggestion.

In PS1 there are also asymmetrical crew numbers for vehicles as well, I don't see the need to force a change that would require a lot more work in this case.

In any event: It's not how they currently work. The game is not yet balanced, of course, but the basics are in place; it requires more work to redesign the functionality and then rebalance even what they've got so far. You have to decide if the MC being turret is only good for 3-crew variants, and how to balance that with 2-crew variants.

While armor/firepower can certainly be helpful to adjust, it is still a lot of "intangibles."

I just don't think it is important enough to make the change to have them go through that effort when they could be working on new vehicles for example instead.

Ratstomper · 2012-07-16, 04:46 PM

Originally Posted by Azren

Gunner operated guns do not move with the tank, they are independent. If the tank rotates around, the turret will still point in the same direction.

The balance compared to the basic "drivergunner" variant should not be a problem. Don't forget, you lose half your firepower by chosing to be the dedicated driver, only with a third player can you match a "drivergunner MBT"'s firepower. Even then the 3 manned vehicle could still lose if he makes a mistake or the driver of the "drivergunner MBT" is good enough. The skill of the gunners influences the outcome too of course.

The only diffrence between Magrider and the other tanks in my suggestion is that it can strafe left and right (probably slowly). It was not enough to avoid damage in PS1 (other empires did area damage, so even a miss hurt), I think it will be the same in PS2. It remains to be seen of course, but this can be balanced by reducing firepower for example.

So long as the gun moves independently from the chassis, then it should work. It'll take some of the uniqueness away from the magrider, but oh well.

I'm not sure number of players in a vehicle should have into account when balancing the vehicle as a whole. The whole reason people get in a vehicle in the first place is for kills. When you put three people in a tank, they're statistically more effective than going alone. That's the point of vehicles; to do what footsoldiers cannot. Add onto that whatever synergy you get from having 3 dedicated, focused spots as opposed to the split two and I think they'll come out even without making any upgrades to the 3-gunner variant.

BlueSkies · 2012-07-16, 01:29 AM

Originally Posted by Azren

- Make the "dedicated driver" cert avaiable without having to put any points into the MBT tree. This should be an option which lets you select a playstyle, not a reward along the road.

So.. it shouldn't require "dedication" to get?

How about if it was only purchasable through the cash shop?

Eggy · 2012-07-16, 05:43 AM

Building on the initial post and the other ideas suggested.

1/. There is a dedicated driver cert. Its up the tree, earnt through play and not given as a default.

2/. Not sure about the need for connected guns. It just seems work where it isnt needed. We can allready hot swap. The delay here, would just need to be added to make it not OP so we dont gain much.

3/. If the cert is taken. The driver looses the abilty to hot swap to the other seat but gains some small peformance boost to speed, torque etc.

4/. The mag needs something more. Would making the big turret only have 270 degree arc when a dedicated driver is in work? So 1 of the guns wont be abel to shoot direclty behind the tank but, the tank is more manouverable than the others due to straffe. And it retains the forward firing gun if the cert isnt taken.

Can the PS2-Mag shoot up and down? or is it literaly a static forward only gun?

Figment · 2012-07-16, 05:56 AM

As you know I'm highly against any form of overlap between solo and multi-crew units.

I can't see how this type of certification has a workable manpower balance solution. Unless you increase the hitpoints of a driver only tank by about 50%, it's not worth it.

Simply because it's retarded that you have to invest certs just to strip both hitpoints and firepower from your team in one go.

Originally Posted by Eggy

Can the PS2-Mag shoot up and down? or is it literaly a static forward only gun?

Check out the initial teaser trailer. It can.

Azren · 2012-07-16, 06:22 AM

Originally Posted by Eggy

1/. There is a dedicated driver cert. Its up the tree, earnt through play and not given as a default.

In my suggestion it is a default because it is not an upgrade to the MBT, it does not give you a plus, it is more like a choice in playstyle.

Originally Posted by Eggy

2/. Not sure about the need for connected guns. It just seems work where it isnt needed. We can allready hot swap. The delay here, would just need to be added to make it not OP so we dont gain much.

The default MBT can shoot both guns at the same time with two players. The "dedicated driver" MBT can only shoot one with two players. Allowing the gunner to chose which to shoot without having to swap seats is not much of a bonus, defenetly not OP.

Originally Posted by Eggy

3/. If the cert is taken. The driver looses the abilty to hot swap to the other seat but gains some small peformance boost to speed, torque etc.

Agreed on no hot swap. Don't think it needs any boost though.

Originally Posted by Eggy

4/. The mag needs something more. Would making the big turret only have 270 degree arc when a dedicated driver is in work? So 1 of the guns wont be abel to shoot direclty behind the tank but, the tank is more manouverable than the others due to straffe. And it retains the forward firing gun if the cert isnt taken.

I disagree. The balance between MBTs should not be set like this.
360° gun won't make it OP if you consider that the vehicle loses half it's firepower by selecting this option, or requires an additional player to operate on the same level as the normal MBT.

Originally Posted by Eggy

Can the PS2-Mag shoot up and down? or is it literaly a static forward only gun?

It can. Saw a video of one taking down a Mosquito in one hit.