Huge Outfits and PlanetSide 2

Hamma · 2012-12-20, 09:45 AM

I had a great discussion on Twitter last night about this and wanted to bring it here.

First off let me start this thread by saying this is NOT an attack on specific outfits. I will not allow people to argue about specific outfits, this discussion is about the size of outfits in general and whether or not you think they hurt the game. Also, I don't want to hear bs like "ohh you're doing it wrong" etc.

This has bothered me since late beta and is becoming more and more of an issue (imo) as of late. I don't have solution for it because there really isn't one but I want to see what peoples thoughts are.

My outfit is smaller in size compared to most. We typically run about a half a platoon or so. We are finding it difficult to find a solid role for us in the game that isn't boring and doesn't involve getting steamrolled. This is becoming more and more difficult as time goes on. Huge outfits are able to put 100 or more people or more on an objective and essentially win with numbers in almost all fights. We are able to hold off, but it's simply a matter of time until we are struck down due to sheer numbers.

Smaller outfits are finding that they have to disband and join larger outfits if they want to even have fun, causing them to lose their own identity and be absorbed into massive teams because there are no recruits left to take. For me community is more important to a game than the game itself, hence why I've been doing this all these years.

Is having one massive outfit per empire what the developers intended? Is spam inviting every no outfit person in the game really a viable recruiting effort? How many of these people even know what they are joining?

What is everyones thoughts on this issue?

Fab · 2012-12-20, 09:48 AM

I agree with that obviously, smaller structures have no chances with the current state of the game.

My Outfit can pull out 2 platoons during our operations, and we manage to do amasing stuff, but in a normal day to day fight, with less than a platoon, there is nothing you can do against a bigger force.
That's how the game works now.. I really don't see how to make it better. And I find it sad.

HiroshiChugi · 2012-12-20, 09:50 AM

Well i know that on my server, there is one outfit that EVERYONE knows about; *****. They constantly spam invites and have even tried to invite people from the outfit I'm in, if I'm not mistaken. I am in teh 2nd biggest outfit on the server (The First Cavalry Division) and people don't even say anything about us. It's always about *****. I fear that we may soon have no choice but to dissolve into *****, even though our leader will have no part of it. In my opinion, outfits SHOULD have size limits, and possibly have to pay money to increase the capacity of that outfit even.

Fab · 2012-12-20, 09:57 AM

Originally Posted by HiroshiChugi

Well i know that on my server, there is one outfit that EVERYONE knows about; *****. They constantly spam invites and have even tried to invite people from the outfit I'm in, if I'm not mistaken. I am in teh 2nd biggest outfit on the server (The First Cavalry Division) and people don't even say anything about us. It's always about *****. I fear that we may soon have no choice but to dissolve into *****, even though our leader will have no part of it. In my opinion, outfits SHOULD have size limits, and possibly have to pay money to increase the capacity of that outfit even.

These guys sound like a zerg outfit, not even asking to be on TS or Mumble?
I mean if the goal of the outfit is to transform a blue zerg into a green zerg, there is really no point..

What is REALLY powerfull, is 200 guys actually working together, fighting for the same strategical goal, and THAT is really powerfull. A zerg is just a zerg. People join an Outfit for the tactical aspects I guess, not for the cool or [Whatever] tag.

HiroshiChugi · 2012-12-20, 10:05 AM

Originally Posted by Fab

These guys sound like a zerg outfit, not even asking to be on TS or Mumble?
I mean if the goal of the outfit is to transform a blue zerg into a green zerg, there is really no point..

What is REALLY powerfull, is 200 guys actually working together, fighting for the same strategical goal, and THAT is really powerfull. A zerg is just a zerg. People join an Outfit for the tactical aspects I guess, not for the cool or [Whatever] tag.

well the outfit I'm in looks down on ****, MAJORLY. Just because of the simple fact that they don't require Teamspeak, Radcall, or Mumble. They just zerg abd zerg and zerg all day long. And when they are trying to cap a base and it looks even in the SLIGHTEST bit like they won't win it, they leave to a DIFFERENT continent, not to a different OBJ or base, but a different CONTINENT. I wish they would just disband...

EDIT: they need this:

AnamNantom · 2012-12-20, 10:35 AM

What is an outfit?

"Informal An association of persons, especially a military unit or a business organization."

Source: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/outfit

My idea of an outfit is that it's like a US military division. I do think the idea is that you are to join up and coordinate with the rest of the faction (empire for you new to PS2) in order to take over land. We could probably use some more tools to facilitate or at least educate people on how to coordinate better.

The problem is that the "zerg" (rest of the factlion) won't always agree with each other and the really big issue that I think you and I (in my smaller current outfit) are seeing is that people do not stay around and defend because they are chasing the cert thirst in a reactionary way.

It truly does become a cat and mouse game. Too much offense, not enough defense. Too much re-action, not enough pre-thought action. Personally, I do not mind sitting around defending a point in order to prevent our resources from being cut off. It's a forward thinking non-reactive strategy. You become the thermostat, not the thermometer, in the temperature of battle.

Most people are not so patient and most outfit leaders don't want want their troops getting bored, so we see a lot of running in circles. I recently lead a random public squad and I felt this pressure internally, not from the reactions of my squad members, but in my thoughts, I wanted to give these guys a good fight but also do what was best for the Vanu Sovereignty.

It may be advisable to reward defenders more. Yet, it is upon the outfit, platoon, and squad leaders to balance what's good for their faction with that's fun for the moment. This is emergent sandbox gameplay and I would presume that we don't want any artificial silly defense reward when in the mind of the strategic, their is honor for holding the defense.

What I propose is rewarding the end game objective a bit more. Make it advantageous to work toward the final goal of a continent lock (or even planetary lock). Give people a bit more visual fluff (patches, player stats, etc) and maybe up or vary the rewards besides the 10% reduction on price of infantry, vehicle items.

TLDR:

It's up to the players to balance between defense and offense in an emergent sandbox style of gameplay. Do we need artificial means to accomplish balance? Do we need more tools to help people understand the strategies that help the entire faction? Do we need to reward the end-game more so that the rest of the faction aids the smaller outfits?

Whiteagle · 2012-12-20, 10:20 AM

Originally Posted by HiroshiChugi

Well i know that on my server, there is one outfit that EVERYONE knows about; ****. They constantly spam invites and have even tried to invite people from the outfit I'm in, if I'm not mistaken. I am in teh 2nd biggest outfit on the server (The First Cavalry Division) and people don't even say anything about us. It's always about ****. I fear that we may soon have no choice but to dissolve into ****, even though our leader will have no part of it. In my opinion, outfits SHOULD have size limits, and possibly have to pay money to increase the capacity of that outfit even.

Ugh, shame to hear that man...

We smaller Outfits on the Red side of Waterson don't have that big of problem, even though we've got TotalBiscuit's Let the Brit Drop AND Angry Joe's Angry Army...

I think this really boils down to base defensibility, right now it's mostly who brings the most numbers that wins.

Take a base with any kind of defensibility against vehicles, like Raven's Landing on Amerish.
The other night, my Outfit The Mobile Infantry [TMI], maybe two open squads worth of people trying to fight a **** zerg rush fell back to Raven's Landing after it was clear we couldn't save Auraxium Firearms Corp.

We held that little base for maybe an hour and a half... and it, was, AWESOME!

At one point we were the only Hex the TR held, so every Smurf in Southern Amerish was banging at our doorstep!

By the time they finally gotten a tank rush together to keep us Spawn Camped, our Zerg had been left alone enought to recap the two hexes next to our Warpgate.

HiroshiChugi · 2012-12-20, 10:24 AM

exactly my point about **** and outfits just like them. they need to learn actual skill, not zerg tactics -__-"

Crator · 2012-12-20, 10:26 AM

Originally Posted by HiroshiChugi

exactly my point about **** and outfits just like them. they need to learn actual skill, not zerg tactics -__-"

How come? There's nothing forcing them to do so... In fact it's more beneficial for everyone to zerg currently. Base defensibility changes along with more effective engineering deployables should help though.

Javelin · 2012-12-20, 10:30 AM

Being from a small outfit myself, a lot of what we do comes from just riding the "outskirts" of the zerg. We have to be very careful picking our next objective so we don't get crushed.

I don't think there is a real game mechanic that's ever been implemented in any game that stops one of human beings most basic instinct of grouping up. That said having more ground to fight over will make those groups spread thinner, so as we get more continents options for smaller outfits will get better IMO.

Infernalis · 2012-12-20, 09:55 AM

Seeing as you can indefinitely respawn and the lack of real defenses then yes, the side with the bigger numbers will always prevail unless there's a big difference in skill.

ringring · 2012-12-20, 10:06 AM

Isn't it intrinsic within the size of the continent population? I mean, cont pop has scaled up from PS1 (by 3-4) and therefore shouldn't the active outfits?

It's ironic. If outfits want an identity they have to grow to the point to which individual identity is lost.

Outcasters generally roll with several squads, maybe 30 people on an average day maximum. We generally achieve stuff, but I'd say we don't have the impact that we would in PS1 with those numbers (to be expectd).

What we have started to do over the past few weeks is cooperate with other outfits, Rffnex and BMC.

We organise our ts servers so that a couple of people from each outfit can communicate and we coordinate our attacks.

I would like to see a PS2 that had outfits working together in alliances and retaining their identity than outfits breaking up and forming a mega-outfit.

Hmr85 · 2012-12-20, 10:08 AM

Quality over Quantity. That is all I have to say about it.

HiroshiChugi · 2012-12-20, 10:15 AM

Originally Posted by Hmr85

Quality over Quantity. That is all I have to say about it.

i say this with EVERYTHING! Literally :P

Dragonskin · 2012-12-20, 10:28 AM

I think this game is designed for large outfits.. if you make a map that can hold 2,000 players then it just breeds large outfits to handle other large outfits. Not all large outfits are zergs though. 666th Devil Dogs are a large outfit, but they are very tactical using combined arms and Teamspeak. Ghosts of the Revolution and Azure Twilight are both large guilds that use similar command structures,tactics and teamspeak. I think people see large outfits and assume that most of them are zergs.

Part of the problem is that these large outfits are finding that it is a numbers game to a degree and to coupe with that the fastest way to combat other larger outfits is to recruit en masse.

It's an issue that has plagued large scale RvR MMORPGs since DAoC... how do you make large scale PvP events without creating the zerg mentality? I don't think it's something you can really avoid if you have large scale battles as your core design for the game.

I think that is partially why people would like to see more infantry centric objectives because it gives smaller outfits a chance to be on level ground through holding down choke points and possibly using better tactics to pin down larger outfits.