Is the AV MAX overpowered?

psijaka · 2013-01-28, 08:05 AM

I've noticed a couple of VS complaints that the NC AV MAX is overpowered in the recent Magrider nerf thread, and, as someone who plays this loadout a lot, I've sometimes thought this myself, but only against infantry.

So let's have a look at the data (from https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...mS2NqV1E&gid=1 )

I've added the DPS column at the end, simply by dividing the damage per mag by the time cycle columns.

From this we see that the TR MAX has the highest fire rate, with the lowest damage per round, and has significantly the best DPS. This seems to fit well with the general TR weapon philosophy, bullets and lots of them.

I've not played this loadout but this is obviously the best for pouring damage onto an unsuspecting deployed Sunderer, or any other target not in a good position to retaliate. The downside is that the damage per salvo is lower, meaning that it is more difficult to pop in and out of cover between shots. And it is not a "one salvo kill", a big disadvantage when trying to "snipe" infantry, as they will have time to react.

Now comparing the NC and VS MAXes. Firstly, the DPS is almost exactly the same. The NC MAX is perhaps better for popping in and out of cover between salvos, but the VS MAX does not have any bullet drop to contend with, again this fits well with other VS weapons; sacrificing damage somewhat for accuracy. Seems fair to me.

Again, I have not played the VS AV MAX but I imagine that it is good for sniping infantry (2 hits = 1100 damage). Comparing with the NC MAX, faster fire rate and no drop, but the projectile is highly visible and is a bit slower than the NC MAX. Seems balanced to me.

My experience with the NC AV MAX is that it is not OP against tanks, especially the Magrider. I have the advantage if I have some decent cover to work with, as I am a small target, but the tank always has the option of retreating if things start going badly. But if I am caught in the open, then the advantage very much lies with the tank; normally ends badly for me.

I do find that it is sometimes rather easy to kill infantry though, especially medium range stationary targets (those people who drop pod onto the roof of a Watchtower and then camp on the top - they get a nasty surprise). But I do have to allow for the projectile drop and get both rounds on target, so some skill is involved. I don't see any way of nerfing these direct hit kills without significantly gimping the class against tanks. Perhaps a slight increase in the Cone of Fire?

I also find that the indirect AoE damage gets me a lot of kills and assists if I have a height advantage over infantry, and this is one area where the class could be nerfed back a bit, without altering the balance between AV MAX and Tanks. I would suggest reducing the AoE damage from 250 to 200 as a starting point. Similar proportional changes could be applied to the other AV MAXes, down to 120 or 100 for the TR, 150 for the VS. EDIT - I retract this on the grounds that most think that the AV MAXes need a little love, not a nerf. Especially the TR.

EDIT - I've made a short compilation condensed from about 20 minutes of gameplay defending Crossroads Watchtower. Some "one Salvo kills" and a good demonstration of how tough a MAX is (survived a Scythe strafing attack that killed few nearby team mates, with barely a scratch), and how unreliable this loadout is for CQC (I had to flee). Also some long range vehicle kills; deployed Sunderers are easy prey.

I would particularly like to hear the opinion and experience of TR and VS AV MAX fans, as well as other Dual Falcon fans. And it would be interesting to hear things from the perspective of tank drivers and of infantry.

Mietz · 2013-01-28, 08:16 AM

Honestly I have never been killed or threatened by any of the AV MAXes ingame as a tank.

TR Pounder is great against infantry though, the VS MAX in general seems a lot weaker to the other two factions, which is intentional as far as I know.

MAXes in PS2 seem to be only moderately useful against vehicles, maybe in bunches they do better, but the HA seems to always be the better choice as its disposable (no resources, no timer), has potential against infantry (dual AV MAX will be less useful) and other utilities it can carry and is equipped from the start to be effective (no 1000cert needed for the second arm).

Honestly, I never use the MAX for AV ops.

psijaka · 2013-01-28, 08:21 AM

Originally Posted by Mietz

Honestly I have never been killed or threatened by any of the AV MAXes ingame as a tank.

TR Pounder is great against infantry though, the VS MAX in general seems a lot weaker to the other two factions, which is intentional as far as I know.

MAXes in PS2 seem to be only moderately useful against vehicles, maybe in bunches they do better, but the HA seems to always be the better choice as its disposable (no resources, no timer), has potential against infantry (dual AV MAX will be less useful) and other utilities it can carry and is equipped from the start to be effective (no 1000cert needed for the second arm).

Honestly, I never use the MAX for AV ops.

Interesting.

I'm having considerable success (and fun) since I've discovered the delights of MAX + dual Falcons (best 700 SC I've spent by far). As I said in my OP, it is deadly against infantry at medium range, to the point where I do suspect that it is a bit OP in this respect. Takes a bit of time to get used to the projectile drop and speed though (using the Firefall Plasma Cannon helped me here; very similar feel to the weapons).

Edit - I only ever go HA for AV ops if my MAX respawn timer is running.

Mietz · 2013-01-28, 09:02 AM

Originally Posted by psijaka

Interesting.

I'm having considerable success (and fun) since I've discovered the delights of MAX + dual Falcons (best 700 SC I've spent by far). As I said in my OP, it is deadly against infantry at medium range, to the point where I do suspect that it is a bit OP in this respect. Takes a bit of time to get used to the projectile drop and speed though (using the Firefall Plasma Cannon helped me here; very similar feel to the weapons).

Edit - I only ever go HA for AV ops if my MAX respawn timer is running.

Then that is a unique perspective from someone with dual AV arms.

I would wager most people didn't invest 1000 certs or 700SC for a second AV arm, getting the second Burster instead.

The cost-benefit calculation makes the dual AV MAX inferior to a HA in my opinion. For 1000 certs I can get a lock-on launcher for HA, or get lvl4 flak/shield.

The negatives:
-Larger target for both Infantry and Vehicles (also usually a priority target)
-generally slower and less agile (except for charge)
-resource dependent
-timer dependent
-no other utility (can't cap points, drive, gun, etc.)
-immobile and largely dependent on sunderer/galaxy transport

The positives:
-Potentially higher DPS against vehicles

In my eyes, it's not worth it.

I can't really talk about NC MAX as I don't play NC, I played VS and TR MAX extensively though.

psijaka · 2013-01-28, 09:26 AM

Originally Posted by Mietz

Then that is a unique perspective from someone with dual AV arms.

I would wager most people didn't invest 1000 certs or 700SC for a second AV arm, getting the second Burster instead.

The cost-benefit calculation makes the dual AV MAX inferior to a HA in my opinion. For 1000 certs I can get a lock-on launcher for HA, or get lvl4 flak/shield.

The negatives:
-Larger target for both Infantry and Vehicles (also usually a priority target)
-generally slower and less agile (except for charge)
-resource dependent
-timer dependent
-no other utility (can't cap points, drive, gun, etc.)
-immobile and largely dependent on sunderer/galaxy transport

The positives:
-Potentially higher DPS against vehicles

In my eyes, it's not worth it.

I can't really talk about NC MAX as I don't play NC, I played VS and TR MAX extensively though.

The thing that pisses me off most about the MAX is the inability to cap flags. How is it that a MAX can't but a tank or a scythe pilot can - even whilst hovering! I can stabilise generators and man the guns in a Sunderer though. Bizarre.

I know that it is incorrrect to compare the dual AV MAX with the HA, but here's some other advantages.

- Health - much harder to kill. I'm amazed by how much punishment a MAX can take. I've certed my MAX to 0.8% regen/sec; doesn't sound much but it is very significant if there isn't an engi around.
- Ammo - 90 rounds available! Can keep on pounding away even without a friendly engi around.
- Charge - or should I call it "Flee"? Saved my skin countless times.

Edit - I went for the second Burster first (meh), but for some reason it dawned on me that the second Falcon might offer some interesting possibilities. I was right.

Figment · 2013-01-28, 09:05 AM

"There are AV MAXes?"

psijaka · 2013-01-28, 09:27 AM

Originally Posted by Figment

"There are AV MAXes?"

We're a rare breed, but the NC MAX + dual Falcons is a very rewarding class if you can pull it off. I'll have to post some videos.

Whiteagle · 2013-01-28, 05:14 PM

Originally Posted by Figment

"There are AV MAXes?"

This is exactly what I thought...

Then again I am a TR player, so no one on my side would EVER run duel Pounders and I figured NC's equivalent was the same.

I guess since their rounds don't drop like stones they can actually make use of them, while the VS have Anti-vehicle sniper rounds as always...

Personally lack luster AV is part of the reason I want to see two-handed Heavy MAX weapons, turning a MAX into a much more powerful field weapon at the cost of maneuverability and warm up time.

Ghoest9 · 2013-01-29, 01:21 AM

Originally Posted by Figment

"There are AV MAXes?"

this

Rothnang · 2013-01-28, 09:33 AM

Maxes aren't very good against vehicles, even with their anti-vehicle setup because MAXes aren't sturdy enough to stand there and unload into a vehicle like their weapons have to to be effective. You tend to have better chances as an HA with a rocket launcher, just because you don't have to spend anywhere near as much time as a target.

In my experience quite a few people use the Falcon as an anti-infantry weapon though, and it seems really good at that.

bpostal · 2013-01-28, 09:41 AM

AV MAX? You mean AI MAX right? What would the AV MAX be OP against? It sure isn't vehicles. Or at least not right now as we don't have lockdown.

psijaka · 2013-01-28, 10:20 AM

Originally Posted by bpostal

AV MAX? You mean AI MAX right? What would the AV MAX be OP against? It sure isn't vehicles. Or at least not right now as we don't have lockdown.

I use the NC dual AV MAX as much against infantry as against vehicles. This is where I consider that it might be a bit OP.

I started this thread partly because there were some posts saying that the NC AV MAX was OP in the Magrider Nerf thread. Maybe I should just put them down to Vanu tears.

Figment · 2013-01-28, 10:37 AM

Maybe it's one of the few things that can consistently hits a Magrider and they're not used to take that sort of punishment?

Sledgecrushr · 2013-01-28, 11:51 AM

I love playing with dual falcon max. Ive managed to kill quite a few tanks and sunderers with it just playing that particular build a few times.

SeraphC · 2013-01-28, 11:56 AM

Originally Posted by psijaka

So let's have a look at the data (from https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...mS2NqV1E&gid=1 )

A Falcon (single) one hit kills infantry on impact. Seems kind of odd when you look at your chart and it says 750 direct damage.

I wouldn't consider the AV MAX overpowered. Even considering their Anti-Infantry capabilities. As shown above their role is way too limited for them to be overpowered.

The strength of a MAX obviously comes from the fact that you can stick your head out and not die instantly. If that isn't the issue at hand a Heavy Assault or Infiltrator will do most of what the AV MAX does better.