Chassis mounted main guns

Talek Krell · 2011-09-18, 07:21 PM

The PS2 Magrider's main cannon is currently fixed forward, probably in much the same way as the driver's gun on the PS1 Magrider. T-Ray has stated this and I think it's worth discussion, since I believe it puts the Mag at a severe disadvantage

The History Lesson
Tanks were designed during WW1 to destroy fortified positions, like machine gun bunkers. Bunkers aren't renowned for their speed and maneuverability, so the designers simply took as large a gun as the engine could move and mounted it directly to the chassis.

As bunkers and trenches fell out of favor, the primary purpose of the tank became killing other tanks. Designers found that a smaller weapon in a rotating turret was infinitely superior for this, and chassis mounted guns have been essentially obsolete since WWI ended. The tank destroyers are the closest thing to an exception but all of their designs had the ability to move the gun left and right to varying degrees, and after WWII those designs were abandoned as well.

The Point
Even with the ability to hover, having to use a fixed forward main cannon with no horizontal travel will put the magrider at a massive disadvantage. Especially if it's supposed to act as an MBT and not an anti-tank sniper. Setting up hover tanks like this has been tried before and they are inevitably:

1. Touchy and unstable, making it difficult to keep the main gun on a target even while "stationary".
2. Less mobile, due to being forced to choose between fighting and maneuvering while their turreted opponents can do both simultaneously.
3. Less aware, due to being forced to only look in the direction they are currently driving lest their tank go off course.

At the very least the new Mag needs a proper control scheme and a gun that has a small range of motion independent of the chassis, but if this thing is to really be competetive with the Vanny and Prowler then it needs its turret back.

Zulthus · 2011-09-18, 07:38 PM

But I honestly think the Mag is fine the way it is. It has a massive advantage at ranges with the Railgun, as the projectile does not have an arc and always hits very close to where you're aiming. The front turret is also fine, I personally don't see why it should be changed. It isn't hard to aim with.

But where did it show the main turret being fixed forward? I don't think we've seen enough to determine that.

FIREk · 2011-09-18, 07:49 PM

Here's how I would do it.

The Mag doesn't need to have a hull-mounted gun (main or secondary - whatever) to be a "special snowflake" - it can move over water and strafe, which should be special enough. :P

Give it a main turret with top-mounted secondary gun, just like any other tank.

The control scheme:
- WASD keys used to accelerate/brake/reverse and strafe,
- the mouse is used to move the turret and look around,
- right-clicking turns the Magrider in the direction where the turret is currently pointing.
This is a pretty robust system, and should be pretty easy to get used to, considering every EverQuest clone requires that you right-click to change direction.

It also allows the devs to give alltank drivers control over the secondary gun only, which would make sense in terms of:
- balance (a powerful vehicle needs a second player for its main gun),
- achievement (the driver can use those expensive special secondary guns he's spend certs and resources on),
- situational awareness (secondary guns typically move around faster, making it easier to look around),
- navigation (since the secondary gun is typically weaker and less crucial, the driver can more often focus on driving, rather than drive blindly at some times, burdened by aiming and firing the main gun sideways or backwards),
- survivability (if the tank needs a second guy to be effective, then, from a design standpoint, it makes it more worthwhile to buff up its armor, since there are two frags inside

),
- more design options (if an MBT can be used solo, there's no room for a vehicle like the Lightning; this may also be relevant to buggies - not yet confirmed in PS2 - which are too fast for one person to both drive and gun).

Originally Posted by Talek Krell

The devs have never stated this, but I've suspected it since the release of the teaser trailer and there's enough circumstantial evidence that I think it's worth discussion.

When I suggested that tank drivers would be better off having control of the secondary gun, Higby replied that this would be problematic on a Mag. To me this practically confirms that it's different in a way that its main gun is hull-mounted and, as initially designed, controlled by the driver.

Originally Posted by Higby

It wouldn't work very well for the magrider, but allowing the driver to man the secondary weapon seems like it could be worth trying. We can consider that and see how it plays.

Brusi · 2011-09-18, 09:17 PM

There isn't much about the current magrider that would say that it will have a rotating turret. It looks in these screen caps that it is most certainly a fixed forward mounted main cannon.

Even with a fixed forward mounted main cannon, i still don't think this is a bad tradeoff for greater freedom of movement and increased accuracy. The shot pretty much lands exactly where the crosshairs are.

I think these following shots are the most accurate in terms of what to expect from the magrider come PS2 beta...

...

...

Zulthus · 2011-09-18, 09:43 PM

Heck, we don't even know if that IS the Magrider or not at this point...

Accuser · 2011-09-18, 10:52 PM

Originally Posted by Zulthus

Heck, we don't even know if that IS the Magrider or not at this point...

I dunno... Brusi's logic looks impeccable. Also, I'd like my Magrider in 'desert camo' brown please.

Talek Krell · 2011-09-18, 11:17 PM

Originally Posted by Zulthus

Heck, we don't even know if that IS the Magrider or not at this point...

I'm pretty sure they've said a couple of times that we've seen the Mag, although I don't know where to look for the quotes.

Captain1nsaneo · 2011-09-19, 06:45 AM

Originally Posted by Brusi

Check out the little health picture in the top right. It seems that there is only 1 slot for a person as the little mark in the middle near the top seems ornamental. My guess is that this is actually NOT the magrider. Unless it is but now it's a one man vehicle which would make me VERY sad though that would line up with Mr.Higby's comment on it being hard for the driver to man the secondary weapon.

2coolforu · 2011-09-19, 07:34 AM

There's two slots, I did an analysis of the trailer. If you zoom in on the top right you can see the pilots name "Shuttledem" and a slot 2 "Empty". If you look at the vehicle Icon you can see a small number '1' in the top slot of the icon and the other slot is empty and seems to be placed in the turret

FIREk · 2011-09-19, 07:48 AM

Originally Posted by Captain1nsaneo

Check out the little health picture in the top right. It seems that there is only 1 slot for a person as the little mark in the middle near the top seems ornamental. My guess is that this is actually NOT the magrider. Unless it is but now it's a one man vehicle which would make me VERY sad though that would line up with Mr.Higby's comment on it being hard for the driver to man the secondary weapon.

Look closer. There's a list of seats below the health image thingie. One of the seats is unoccupied.

EDIT: just how did I miss 2coolforu's reply? :O

Sirisian · 2011-09-18, 11:48 PM

Personally I hate the new design of the Magrider. I prefer a swiveling top. If this is one of those things where you can now go the same speed in all directions. Ugh. Would much rather design it like a regular tank that hovers and fires an energy based shell. The whole railgun always seemed difficult as hell to balance. I shot planes out of the air with it all the time in the original. Bit too different.

BorisBlade · 2011-09-18, 11:57 PM

I hate being forced to be a lightning pilot. =( I want to drive, not drive and shoot. Terrible change, but as with everything else it seems, if it was in ps1 they have to take it out or change it ....usually to clone BF when possible.

I hope there are some good vehicles in the game that arent designed for one man armies. Somethin where teamwork and fun are the key. Where i can focus on just driving and get gunners to focus on gunning. No more half ass gunners and half ass pilot vehicles.

Seems odd that a game with so many players is focused on getting vehicles with as little players in them as possible. Seems so counterproductive to teamwork and social interaction. The stories you hear of memorable vehicle fights, and esp those where people met their teamates and friends were not those with solo lightnings or bfr's but those such as deliverer runs (pre tank/AV buff), or prowlers, raiders, etc. Those are fun as hell. And we know there are gonna be plenty of people around, there's no need to put in selfish, boring, solo kill whore vehicles. I mean who really thought this was a good idea?

FastAndFree · 2011-09-19, 02:10 AM

You know, after seeing it on picture, we were pretty sure about the new Reaver being a 2-seater too, and yet apparently it isn't...

Also the new Vanguard quite clearly has a turret. It sounds very unlikely to me that they would give one empire's MBT a rotating turret and a fixed cannon to another's. Hover or not

So either

The Magrider does have a turret - it's that entire narrow top section
What we thought is a turret on the Vanguard is actually fixed -why would they do that-
The vehicle on the above pics isn't the Magrider/the Vanguard and the Magrider are now in different vehicle classes

Brusi · 2011-09-19, 03:55 AM

Higby did allude to the fact that the Magrider would be different to the Prowler and Vanguard in terms of allowing the pilot to control the secondary weapons, instead of the primary weapon.

Sounds like the whole design for the Magrider is based on the Pilot operating the primary weapon (hence the fixed cannon assumption).

I do agree that the images originally released are pretty old now though, and have probably been through some design iterations since then. I would love to see how they implement the second gunner position on the vanguard, as it will most likely get a revamp... (notice the anti-infantry guns are still mounted in the turret to the left of the main cannon, like the original PS Vanguard)

FIREk · 2011-09-19, 06:05 AM

Originally Posted by Brusi

(notice the anti-infantry guns are still mounted in the turret to the left of the main cannon, like the original PS Vanguard)

It may simply be that the Vanguard in this early screen simply doesn't have the secondary gun mount "attached" (much like the Mosquito didn't have any weapons, but seems to have them in the trailer).

The two smaller cannons/HMGs could simply be coaxial weapons, however they look too powerful compared with the usual 7,62mm MG - like the coax both the M1A1 and T80 have in BFBC2 for the odd infantry suppression/kill.

OR it means that initially they thought about of copying the PS1 concept, and giving the drivers no weapons at all, with the exception of the Magrider, which would have a weak hull-mounted weapon for the driver...