Generator

Gogita · 2011-02-23, 08:19 AM

I have been thinking lately how to generator drops a more interesting tactic and less of a fast I-WIN-button tactic.

What if...
When you destroy the generator, the base will switch to emergency power power. This will prevent the base the base from shutting down completely, but only for a short amount of time, like 5 minutes. (this of course can be tested in beta)
After 5 minutes, the gen will go down completely and it will have the same effect as a gen drop currently has.

The defending team has to try to repair the gen within the timer to prevent the base from going down and maybe losing the base.
The attacking team has to defend the generator to prevent the defending team from repairing the generator.

Also some alternative effects of having a base running on alternative power is for example that you cannot get vehicles anymore, because it takes too much power. With this, gen dropping a base can still make the enemy empire having problems getting armor, but still make it possible for them to spawn there.

What do you guys think? Don't be too harsh please...

klu · 2011-02-23, 09:28 AM

not a bad idea, you could accomplish about the same effect with multiple generators also. i personally hope the bases and towers become much more complicated, in layout, and with more 'capture points' (multiple generators and cc's, or something new)

Wrath · 2011-02-23, 10:03 AM

I dont see the issue with gen drops there only able to be used on a handful of bases due to gens being in basements in a lot

Firefly · 2011-02-23, 11:08 AM

Firstly, a generator drop is not the I-WIN button. Generator drops can successfully be countered, thereby resecuring the generator. It's not foolproof, mind you, and you can't just zergtard it to death.

I tend to believe that generators were poorly implemented from the get-go and I'm hoping it's one aspect of the game's mechanics that someone looked at and said "We need an engineer!"

The generator needs a number of defensive measures. It's a critical point in a base defense. It's a critical point in attacks. It should be better defended. What those defenses might be, I don't really know. I've never stopped to analyze it.

basti · 2011-02-23, 11:19 AM

You and one of another of your crazy ideas again? OUT!

Seriously: bad idea, really bad idea. The problem with gendropping isnt the dropping, its the idiots that dont understand that a gen needs to be protected as well. And it is easy to protect: If you have all base entrances and the main lobby/cc under control, just pass the gen every few minutes to check for possible cloakers. You will be fine that way.
If you loose a base entrance, check more often for cloakers while making sure the enemy zerg cant push to the gen.
If you loose main lobby/CC, defend the gen at all time with a few guys. Just make sure no AV max can run throu the open doors (door virus/CC hack) and kill the gen alone.

And bang, you are fine. No need for another system that makes the valid tactic of blowing the gen by yourself impossible. Guard your stuff, or loose it, it is that simple.

and about the i-win button thingy: a few days ago, on esamir, VS had Dagon, Jarl and the Dropship. Vs had to defend Dagur mostly, because of a ongoing NC vehicle push. Jarl was CEd up, but almost completly empty.
Renegade Legion, a NC outfit, tried SEVERAL times to galdrop and genhold Jarl. Every time they tried, the VS fought at Dagur and only a few at Jarl, not enough to have a chance against the NC. EVERY time the NC tried, the VS managed to kill themself at Dagur, spawn over to Jarl (bound there), and grab gear to counter the NC, and that in the time it took to discover the Galdrop-NC kill gen, mostly just half a minute.
Every time, we managed to attack the NC at the gen level before they could even kill and evacuate the gen. Every time we killed a few before they got ready to fully defend. Every time we forced the to hold inside the gen, and every time we managed to remove them and fix the gen within 3 minutes of the gen going down.
Dont get me Wrong, Renegade Legion isnt a bad outfit. They had quite a bunch of people, and they know how to do stuff, but they had no chance against the VS zerg that always appeared when they hit Jarl. It was at least a 2-1 ratio.
And you tell me a Gen Kill is a I-WIN button? It is not, and never was. And just because you fail to counter it doesnt mean there needs to be a system to help you. Just start learing to adapt to situations rather than starting to cry.

kaffis · 2011-02-23, 12:45 PM

Honestly, this is another "problem" that goes away if you make defending bases that aren't already the target of an organized attack fun for players and/or worthwhile in their assessment of things to do.

Reward patrolling and defense, and generator problems go away, as the generator's one of the things to be defended.

The problem is, there's never been an incentive to defend something that wasn't already swarming with enemies to kill.

Tremadog · 2011-02-23, 12:56 PM

Originally Posted by kaffis

The problem is, there's never been an incentive to defend something that wasn't already swarming with enemies to kill.

That's a very good point. I hope that gets addressed. Perhaps getting a small incentive for spotting a new enemy target could help?

basti · 2011-02-23, 01:39 PM

Originally Posted by Tremadog

That's a very good point. I hope that gets addressed. Perhaps getting a small incentive for spotting a new enemy target could help?

I have a better idea: you understand that you dont need LOLXP for every damn thing you do, including breathing, and learn that keeping the gen alive is more important than farming 950325 kills and 2389075628965 bep.

Because i really love to see you BEP and killwhores being punished for your stupidity every damn time. Keep farming the guys while i kill your gen, im happy with that.

kaffis · 2011-02-23, 03:18 PM

Originally Posted by basti

I have a better idea: you understand that you dont need LOLXP for every damn thing you do, including breathing, and learn that keeping the gen alive is more important than farming 950325 kills and 2389075628965 bep.

Because i really love to see you BEP and killwhores being punished for your stupidity every damn time. Keep farming the guys while i kill your gen, im happy with that.

But any massive game that requires teamwork will always have an element of herding cats.

The idea, then, is to make it so the cats will want to do productive things. Sure *I* have no problem defending a quiet base. But my squad might. And defending something alone is so boring and unproductive that even I can't stomach it.

It also, however, doesn't reward the commander who can actually convince a squad of people to defend before the enemy zerg arrives for doing so. I think we can agree that it's (potentially) a productive use of his time and leadership, but his chance of ever getting recognized for it is zero, while platoons of uncoordinated, leaderless people are pumping CEP into 3 guys just for following the zerg around.

GoldDragon · 2011-02-23, 05:17 PM

Originally Posted by kaffis

But any massive game that requires teamwork will always have an element of herding cats.

The idea, then, is to make it so the cats will want to do productive things. Sure *I* have no problem defending a quiet base. But my squad might. And defending something alone is so boring and unproductive that even I can't stomach it.

It also, however, doesn't reward the commander who can actually convince a squad of people to defend before the enemy zerg arrives for doing so. I think we can agree that it's (potentially) a productive use of his time and leadership, but his chance of ever getting recognized for it is zero, while platoons of uncoordinated, leaderless people are pumping CEP into 3 guys just for following the zerg around.

Amen. One of the things my outfit does is all the work that the zerg will ignore. If we see a link that an enemy can exploit, we will do our best to set up a defense (usually large amounts of CE as a babysitter so we can continue trying to help people make progress...) before it becomes a problem. Often we've been in the middle of setting up defenses when people arrive and we've been able to call for help.

That said help usually just ignores us until we get screwed over by the 20+ incoming against our 5-10.

Anyway, I have to say I like the potential ideas behind a delayed shutdown. That aside, if you pull the plug then no lights for you. As much as these delayed shutdowns and secondary generators might simulate more realistic set ups, I'm not sure they have a place in PlanetSide. Initially reading through I would have agreed with the thought but after seeing the counter arguments I am inclined to disagree.

As it has been said several times you either defend your assets or lose them. However I recognize the validity of needing an incentive to defend. While tactical players see the incentive as not losing stuff, the people who play for experience (for "fun"... to each their own) do not and are perfectly happy leaving it to the strategists and older players (I know several who's twitch reflex isn't at its best who do things such as ANTs and Defenses etc). My suggestion here would be SOI / Asset XP Bonuses. That is to say if you are the only person within your base or near an important asset, you should gain extra experience for defending it. I feel this applies to attackers as well so there is more reason to use tactical strikes and not just rushing the next base on the list.

This is just another take on the situation. It's impossible to make everyone happy, that's just how things are, so lets hope in all of these suggestions (pray that SOE actually pays attention...) we get something that works well enough we can enjoy it.

wildcat140679 · 2011-02-24, 03:16 PM

The topic has some what mutated in to experience rewards for defending strategic base object/location like the generator and get rewarded for doing so. This off topic discussion might be better of having it's thread of it's own.

As much as I might like receiving a reward for my time spend down in the generator room or sitting in the corridor with my gun trained on the back door, I don't believe it's the right thing to do. For some might be dedicated in defending it, but many might be out for some easy experience while the went afk for a smoke or what ever the do while afk.

Instead of rewarding experience points, how about if you would over time slowly accumulate an experience multiplier, that can only be cashed if a kill is scored within or within the vicinity of that key location you have been guarding in.

Based on strategic importance and on how frequent enemies will pass through that area an experience multiplier accumulation rate and a maximum can be set and based on. But other factors might also be useful to weight in like number of enemies with in the SOI

For example, back door guarding, over a period of 10 minutes you experience multiplier will increase to a maximum of 200%. killing an enemy after 5 minutes with in the vicinity of the back door would rewards you with 50% more onto op an usual kill reward. Enemies try to break to the back door quite frequently, so you often don't have to wait very long to cash in your guarding reward.

But guarding the generator on the other hand, isolated deep with in the base can be a long wait before enemy makes its way to it, that is, if the make it to the generator at all. After 10 minutes guarding your experience multiplier could be 800% maxing the next kill 8x its usual value, if an enemy does show up, it's a very rewarding kill.

Going out of this key location for to long will cause this multiplier to rapidly decay to zero or rest back to zero. But it should be long enough to run to the closest equipment terminal and back again, and have some time to spare.

Even if no one shows up, the thought of being rewarded if the enemy does show up, will be more appealing for "active" guarding players.

I'm assume afk experience multiplier harvester, will have a much harder time cashing this reward for you need to kill something and those active are more likely to land the killing blow.

Firefly · 2011-02-23, 01:44 PM

Originally Posted by kaffis

The problem is, there's never been an incentive to defend something that wasn't already swarming with enemies to kill.

Um, yes there is. It's called, not getting your generator ganked. A blown generator, if overlooked, is like an STD - if you don't treat it, it becomes a real problem.

Fail to protect your generator. It will fuck you in the ass.

That's your incentive. Problem solved, next?

DviddLeff · 2011-02-23, 01:48 PM

In the upgrade project I have the following system:

Generators: When a generator is destroyed it is no longer as much of an immediate crippling blow for the defenders. Once the generator is destroyed the bases systems go off-line one after another every 10 seconds in the following sequence.

Any lattice or module benefits - Door locks - Turrets - Vehicle bays - Equipment terminals - spawn tubes

This gives the defenders a minute to get the generator repaired or at least prepare before they lose all the facilities power.

Grimster · 2011-02-23, 02:01 PM

Originally Posted by DviddLeff

In the upgrade project I have the following system:

Generators: When a generator is destroyed it is no longer as much of an immediate crippling blow for the defenders. Once the generator is destroyed the bases systems go off-line one after another every 10 seconds in the following sequence.

Any lattice or module benefits - Door locks - Turrets - Vehicle bays - Equipment terminals - spawn tubes

This gives the defenders a minute to get the generator repaired or at least prepare before they lose all the facilities power.

Nice idea but isn't one minute cutting it a bit short?

I think 3-5 minutes would be a better way to go.

basti · 2011-02-23, 02:26 PM

Originally Posted by Grimster

Nice idea but isn't one minute cutting it a bit short?

I think 3-5 minutes would be a better way to go.

No, it should be a maximum of 10 secs before the tubes go out. There should NEVER be a system that allows you to slack of and ignore gen defense. And even 10 secs would make it extremly easy to get the gen up again...