Why doesn't TR use the Prowler more? No flaming please...

Cease · 2003-09-10, 01:38 PM

Ok I was thinking about this. Normally when people start talking about why there are no Prowlers they make direct comparisons to the other tanks, but never seem to consider its purpose -- Heavy Armor Support. Let me try to explain where I'm going with this.

The common response is the Prowler doesnt match the firepower of a Vanguard.

"Vanguards can one shot grunts."

Ok, but how often do you see a Vanguard taking one shot and moving to the next target? More often than not if a Vangard shoots at you, they will fire more than one shot to make sure they got ya. The Prowler can kill grunts easily in two hits. I don't really thing the difference in firepower is all the MUCH of a difference in this regard.

And doesn't the fact that so many Magriders don't even have gunners sort of show that for Heavy Armor Support, is a lot more about its prescence than it is about it's firepower?

"Hard to fill all gunner spots on a Prowler."

The MG is a nice addition, but generally adds little in the big picture. All you really need to be effective is 1 gunner for the big guns - same as the other empires.

I guess what I'm really trying to say, is that when I'm gunning for a Vanguard, I'm generally shooting at grunts, AMSs, turrets, doors, etc. While I do shoot at other enemy tanks, the majority of my time is spent shooting at other things other than enemy tanks. Things that the Prowler could be just as effective at shooting.

A question for you Van and Magriders... would you say the majority of your deaths in your tank have been from other tanks? From my experience the majority of my deaths while gunning for a Vanguard has come via mines.

I sat waiting on my turn to come up in the V-Term queue last night on NC/Markov. I was number 16. Out of the 16 vehicles I watched come out - 8 of them were Vanguards. This wasn't some special operation... this was your typical Tuesday night zerg warfare. I've noticed this now a few nights actually. Whenever there is a large queue of vehicles I observe what comes out. The majority of them are Vangards.

I don't think the key here is the cannon firepower so much as it is numbers. Heavy Armor Support DOES make a difference. I've never seen TR even make an attempt to use a Prowler to the extent that the NC and VS do, so I think its "suckiness" might be a little exaggerated.

I remember a while back we had night where my outfit all got Prowlers. We had like 6 fully manned Prowlers. We had a blast and did really well, but this was a "special" night. We went out of our way to get that many Prowlers. Whereas for NC and VS that many tanks is actually quite common.

So to wrap it up, while I agree the Prowler is probably the weaker of the 3 tanks, I still think its VERY much capable of providing Heavy Armor Support if more were used.

Opinions?

Bad Mojo · 2003-09-10, 01:50 PM

You need to come with me on a nightly excursion and tell all those TR driving prowlers to knock it off.

TheRagingGerbil · 2003-09-10, 01:59 PM

I dunno, the main gun seems plenty powerful to me. I jacked one the other night in a TR controlled courtyard. Hopped in the gunner seat and killed 2 AMS's, 1 Liberator, a reaver and a deliverer before I finally blew up.

Madcow · 2003-09-10, 02:04 PM

One of my 2 chars has the Prowler cert, but I tend to use it to jack Vanguards and Mags more than anything. In my completely unscientific opinion, the Prowler seems to have the most trouble against ground troops out of the 3 tanks. The main cannon seems to do significantly less splash damage against ground troops than the Vanguard's main cannon, and the splash is the cause of most of the one shot kills. You can rain hell on troops but unless you're getting some direct hits it seems like there's not a lot of people dropping. The Magrider is more effective plowing people than either of the other tanks, and that also helps in anti-infantry maneuvering. The Prowler seems to need somebody gunning in the machine gun to work well and not be a sitting duck to any infantry willing to take the time to fire Decis at you, whereas the other tanks have other ways to handle it. Gunning in the machine gun isn't a whole lot of fun, though, and nobody wants to do it for the most part. The Prowler would get a lot more love if it just had an alt fire mode to change to the machine guns so you only needed one gunner, although it would still lag behind the other tanks.
It's very nice against other vehicles and against turrets, and I've actually taken one out more than a few times without any gunners and just squashed as many infantry as I could find in an open field battle. It's not a bad vehicle, it's just not worth the cert points to a lot of people. If I wasn't busy jacking tanks I consider more fun, I don't know if I'd have kept the cert.

DocD · 2003-09-10, 02:05 PM

The prowler is underpowered and no one wants to waste their certs on something thats not that effective, causes a lot of grief, and dies when faced with a single vanguard on most occasions. Let's see......3 people in a prowler or 3 people with AV weapons? I think thats why you don't see many of them.

If they were more powerful that would be fine. Why should TR waste the manpower? It would take about 6 prowlers to equal 4 vanguards. Thats 12 or 18 people versus 8.........you do the math.

Happy lil Elf · 2003-09-10, 03:06 PM

Why would it take 3 Prowlers to equal 2 Vangaurds?

CunningLinguist · 2003-09-10, 03:07 PM

I have to agree with Cease...As a NC, i've seen plenty of even battles won by us simply because we have a (ONE) vanguard with us. It's its presence, not its relative killing power that makes a tank worthwhile. It makes infantry keep their heads down. I know as a 'grunt' myself that the presence of an enemy tank changes my whole outlook on the battle. Actually, i would think that the prowler's heavy armour would give it an advantage of being able to stick through a battle longer and keep the enemy infantry from being effective.

no game can be looked at as "this unit is better than this other unit so that unit has to suck." It's all about a unit's role in a force. Infantry need tanks to make the enemy infantry "keep their heads down" and thus allows them to maneuvre. MAX's are needed for assaults and support. MAX's and tanks both need infantry to defend them from enemy infantry. It's a viscious cycle, and the absence of TR using heavy armour is, IMO, why they are falling behind when they once dominated. NC uses combined arms. TR doesn't. I'm not sure what's wrong with vanu.

GeistX · 2003-09-10, 03:19 PM

I was TR on Konried last night and there were a LOT of Prowlers and Reavers being purchased at the local vehicle terminal, and being used to great effect. I wonder if it is a per server thing?

Indecisive · 2003-09-10, 03:24 PM

Rofl thats bull shit yesturday i saw 4 prowlers running around together.

Holgarth · 2003-09-10, 03:28 PM

The prowler's 100mm cannons does do less damage than the Vanguard's 150mm cannons, (it is a bigger shell after all) but what people seem to forget is that the Prowler has a higher rate of fire than a Vanguard, a one on one fight with skilled crews I think the Prowler has the edge (I said skilled crew remember)

The disadvantage for squads of Prowlers is that it is max of 3 per squad fully maned, where as a Van or Mag can field 5 per full squad. Their advantage is that they can fire at 2 diferent targets, i.e. another tank with main guns and infantry/aircraft with chain guns, while the drive can concentrate on moving.

I see more and more full squads of Prowlers now on the Warner server working togeather they can put down a good hail of anti-infantry/anti-air fire while the main guns deal with the more heavy stuff.

My outfit Terran Rangers have been doing some good training with armoured squads and have done faily well vs Vanguards, one night we took out total of 8 vanguards, 3 AMS, 2 Sunders with only one Prowler destroyed during those engagements. It mainly takes training as a team to use the Prowler well, it is a big beastie to manuver well and with the right support, ie moving in with infantry you have a winning combo.

Happy lil Elf · 2003-09-10, 03:28 PM

And I rarely see a single Prowler. Because you saw 4 last night does not mean they are widely used. They're not mostly I think because lots of people thinkthey're not worth it. Fine by me though, much easier to take out 2 or even 3 striker users in my Lightning than it is to take out a single fully manned Prowler lol

CraZy · 2003-09-10, 03:38 PM

Prowler is easy to ambush and destroy because it moving very slow and it turns slow too....as for Mag its agie and fast so you cant ambush it same as Vanguard.

SandTrout · 2003-09-10, 03:59 PM

Originally posted by CraZy
Prowler is easy to ambush and destroy because it moving very slow and it turns slow too....as for Mag its agie and fast so you cant ambush it same as Vanguard.

You sir, are either very ignorant or very stupid. The Prowler has the EXACT same top speed as the Vangaurd, and is FASTER than the Magrider. The handleing seems about the same as the Vangaurd as well.

I've used the Vangaurd, Prowler, and Magrider in all positions (gunning and driveing) and I have this to say: The Prowler's main guns could use an ROF buff, but they are still effective vs vehicles, and if people would just use the goddamn Machine guns, you would realize that infantry is not all that much of a problem(no more than for the Vangaurd, and probably less). The tank is highly underrated because people are trying to use the 100mms like the 150mm, but forget that you have another gunner that is dedicated to infantry.

Mazzic · 2003-09-10, 04:24 PM

Prowler is a middle of the Road Tank that is only effective when you have 3 gunners on Voice Chat.

It requires more coordination. I think that, on Emerald, TR is largely unorganzied. We've gotten a lot more commanders, but people seem to ignore them. I can't speak to the organization of NC. But, whenever I go up against a large force of they just keep coming sweeping over a base like a Plague.

noxious · 2003-09-10, 05:59 PM

Originally posted by CunningLinguist
...I'm not sure what's wrong with vanu.

Our problem is we zerg aimlessly, and the majority of our CR5s only go along with it. I decided to hop onto Markov and play my TR character a few nights ago, after having played my VS/Emerald character exclusively for the past three and a half weeks. I joined a few outfit guys on Searhus, which was half NC and half VS at the time. I was amazed to see the CR5 give some direction. Iva was first, naturally. Then we hit Laka for the quick LLU cap, and to secure an Interlink facility and a lattice link to the Tech Plant just south of it (can't recall it's name at the moment). Strategically, it was the most viable option. Even though Laka was a lot further than two of three other bases linked to Iva. It's the strategy that will win, even just little things like securing a tech plant in three hacks instead of four. If my VS character wasn't 18/3 and my TR only 14/0 I'd probably go back to TR on Markov just because it was nice to see that kind of leadership (that people were actually listening to).

Now to add onto the Prowler debate. When I played the TR character primairly, I was a dedicated gunner for a dedicated driver. I enjoyed gunning for the Prowler more than the Vanguard, and a LOT more than for the Magrider. The Magrider's main cannon is about as intimidating as a squirt gun, and while the Vanguard may pack more of a punch per shot, the Prowler gets the job done and allows the user to be ever so slightly inaccurate and still get the job done (because of the faster fire rate).