Ghost capping zergs - air domination everywhere else - wordt 2x event ever.

[Ghoest9]

-No one is defending because its a total waste of time xp wise.

-So attackers are just moving in giant zergs from undefended base to base(which are even harder to defend against).

-If you try messing around in smaller forces you are quickly dominated by air.



Thers is practically no fighting for anyone except air picking off clueless small groups. And Noob defenders who get rolled imediatly when the zerg shows up.
This is not fun.
Im hardly kiling anyone any more(and my average k/d is still about the same.)




EDIT: Ghost capping zergs - air domination everywhere else - WORST 2x event ever.(if a mod could happen to fix my title that would be nice.)

[Thunderhawk]

The fliers dont care as long as they're getting the points, and the zerg doesnt care as long as its gettign the points, so I can only assume you're being steamrolled by both ?

Wait till prime time, when things settle down, the Double XP is going to be on for a week, so the mad rush to get kills today will quiten down and average out over the course of the week.

[Ghoest9]

Originally Posted by Thunderhawk

The fliers dont care as long as they're getting the points, and the zerg doesnt care as long as its gettign the points, so I can only assume you're being steamrolled by both ?

Wait till prime time, when things settle down, the Double XP is going to be on for a week, so the mad rush to get kills today will quiten down and average out over the course of the week.

Last night was this way too.
The game play has changed - mainly because this is the most rational choice at group level.

But my guess is that zerg DOES care at an individual level and its making players unhappy.

[Sifer2]

Yeah it's like this even during normal gameplay just amplified by double xp time.

There are several root causes of the behavior:

Bases for the most part are too difficult to defend. AMP station especially. But now also the Tech Plant after the changes. The Bio Lab is the only one where defenders have a chance if they don't greatly outnumber attackers. Outposts of course feel like a waste of time to defend to begin with since most of them are not placed in strategically significant areas, and there is nothing like lattice to force you to care about them. You just grab them after they are empty for free xp.

Lack of direction. The sheer number of places to go causes people to scatter. Nothing like lattice to force the zergs to fight each other. So they end up going around each other as it's easier an more profitable. But ultimately more boring. I don't necessarily feel the map is too big. Just that there are too many junk outposts that draw people apart, an encourage ghost capping.

Air is highly mobile which perfectly adapts to this flawed gameplay. When your in an ESF you never miss out on free ghost cap. Just watch the map an zoom to wherever is about to flip to your side. It's also easy to pick off all those scattered ground forces with pods. You also see Liberators taking advantage of the above mentioned poorly defensible bases by spawn camping the completely open unprotected outdoor spawn rooms.

[Malorn]

The OP isn't crazy - I've observed the same behavior lately, especially late at night. I like to occasionally join random squads and try to be a typical casual player and see how different types of players and outfits experience the game.

This is what I typically see in larger groups - players roll around in a blob from territory to territory getting capture XP and avoiding the enemy. When the blobs meet it is by chance, not intent. When players try to stop the blob they usually get rolled and have little choice but to find their own team's blob and roll with it. Larger outfits have the numbers to chance this behavior, which is why I don't see it on ops. Seen several reddit threads pop up about this sort of thing too.

Seems to be a combination of playing the territory control game + path of least resistance....but it isn't fun...at all. Its the exact opposite of what I experience in outfit play where we intentionally go after the enemy and pick fights because that's where the entertainment is.

Any feedback from the PSU community on contributing factors to this behavior? I have my own thoughts but I'd like to learn what y'all think is going on here.

[Joeaniator]

i think no one defends is because it is just so hard against big groups u have no chance because there is no walls around the small outposts and towers. I have been in planetside 2 since a month after the beta started and i and all my squad have not managed to defend a base against a armor colom or air squadrent even though we have the bigger numbers, you are just to exsposes in the bases and there is not enough defences (turrets, Walls, Trenches and ceilings to prevent air strike it is a very good game but when you get attacked you have no chance against big zergs (not organized)

[Tatwi]

I think it's simply a matter of people taking the path of least resistance to "win". It's no different than Alterac Valley in WoW. Even though the original rules for AV were better for encouraging long PvP battles with neat player driven events, quite a few of those events are still in AV today, yet they are never used. Instead, both sides pass each other in the field and complete the PvE objectives in a race to see who will "win" first. And people complain when one side "turtles", forcing PvP by actually defending their own base and PvE objectives. Personally, the most fun I had in WoW PvP was an AV turtle.

Sadly, it seems that's not what people want. Some want a good fight, while most just want to maximize their xp per hour.

If SOE removed XP, certs, and resources then folks might actually fight each other more consistently. There would be nothing else to "optimize" or "maximize" or "min/max", etc. Terrible suggestion of course, but it proves the point that the problem is with the players and not the game. We can't have nice things (like balanced character advancement through side grades), because people focus on the wrong things, losing sight of the purpose of the game: to have fun blowing stuff up with your friends.

[Ghoest9]

I think the causes are fairly straight forward.

1 playing defense doesnt earn many certs for ~70-90% of the players anymore. Playing offense always earns cert(if you move with the zerg.)

2 Medium size groups(10-30 players) are not viable unless they are highly organized with their own dedicated air support to defend them from enemy air roamers.

[PurpleOtter]

Originally Posted by Malorn

The OP isn't crazy - I've observed the same behavior lately, especially late at night. I like to occasionally join random squads and try to be a typical casual player and see how different types of players and outfits experience the game.

This is what I typically see in larger groups - players roll around in a blob from territory to territory getting capture XP and avoiding the enemy. When the blobs meet it is by chance, not intent. When players try to stop the blob they usually get rolled and have little choice but to find their own team's blob and roll with it. Larger outfits have the numbers to chance this behavior, which is why I don't see it on ops. Seen several reddit threads pop up about this sort of thing too.

Seems to be a combination of playing the territory control game + path of least resistance....but it isn't fun...at all. Its the exact opposite of what I experience in outfit play where we intentionally go after the enemy and pick fights because that's where the entertainment is.

Any feedback from the PSU community on contributing factors to this behavior? I have my own thoughts but I'd like to learn what y'all think is going on here.

With no apparent gain to base defense vrs. capping unoccupied territory for the benefit of acquiring 'certs to pay for unlocks at extortion level prices why would anyone do anything else? I realize that much of the current meta game design choices are deliberate, but from a player perspective I don't think it is working as intended. You, the collective "you" at SOE, made some design decisions that are at odds with each other. After unlocking the three load out slots EXP is meaningless and 'certs are the only real currency in game. The other major issue is base design and layout. I get that you want to encourage "game flow" and discourage protracted sieges, but the structures as they are currently are basically markers for places to meet and shoot at each other. The wise cracks about no doors or windows on Auraxis really are apt!

[Sturmhardt]

Originally Posted by Malorn

Any feedback from the PSU community on contributing factors to this behavior? I have my own thoughts but I'd like to learn what y'all think is going on here.

Uhm.. what do you think it is? It's exactly what folks have been complaining about since beta: The fucked up hex system. People are encoureaged NOT to search the fight, it's always easier to cap stuff that is not contested. It's a very old problem and nothing new and it's built into the hex system - as you probably know because you have been one of the good posters here once.

I don't have an easy solution for this and I don't want to suggest the lattice here, but right now this lonesome zerg (without opposition) behavior is highly encouraged by the hex system.

Edit: The incentive to NOT engage your enemy also is a problem on a meta level. If one faction has a strong presence on one continent, the other 2 automatically go somewhere else where they can be the winning zerg steamrolling empty bases.

[Forsaken One]

Originally Posted by Malorn

Any feedback from the PSU community on contributing factors to this behavior? I have my own thoughts but I'd like to learn what y'all think is going on here.

Bases need to be funner, defending tends to suck both gameplay wise and cert wise.

Make more bases like The Crown. It feels both fun to attack and fun to defend. Every other base atm feels like "shoot at guys through this hole" for BOTH attack and defense.

Tech plant? Hold up in the main room and shoot through the slot at the top (again both attacker and defense will do this) till the shields are down.

Most other places? Shoot at doorways till someone breaks through and it won't be the defenders.


The game needs better Indoor (bios semi suck)as well as better variety at least with the bases. For the most part a lot of the bases feel the same just with a different wall/object placement.

[Bags]

Originally Posted by Forsaken One

Bases need to be funner, defending tends to suck both gameplay wise and cert wise.

Make more bases like The Crown. It feels both fun to attack and fun to defend. Every other base atm feels like "shoot at guys through this hole" for BOTH attack and defense.

Tech plant? Hold up in the main room and shoot through the slot at the top (again both attacker and defense will do this) till the shields are down.

Most other places? Shoot at doorways till someone breaks through and it won't be the defenders.


The game needs better Indoor (bios semi suck)as well as better variety at least with the bases. For the most part a lot of the bases feel the same just with a different wall/object placement.

Defending is far greater certwise than attacking. 1500 xp doesn't hold a candle to 15% more xp per kill + a meat grinder.

[Helwyr]

Originally Posted by Malorn

[...]
Seems to be a combination of playing the territory control game + path of least resistance....but it isn't fun...at all. Its the exact opposite of what I experience in outfit play where we intentionally go after the enemy and pick fights because that's where the entertainment is.

Any feedback from the PSU community on contributing factors to this behavior? I have my own thoughts but I'd like to learn what y'all think is going on here.

On Connery I don't notice this distinction between Outfit players and non Outfit players. If players are sweeping up lots of bases largely uncontested it's with an Outfit in the Vanguard and everyone else just going with the flow. I don't see fight avoidance in quite the same way, rather avoidance of being the underdog/losing. So, players of each faction will cluster on a single continent perhaps two, but rarely ever split evenly between all three.

The problem with PS2 is the primary motivation is just gain certs, ok there's K/D stats etc for some people on top of this. However, there's very little in the way of game mechanics for players to be motivated to see their Faction collectively do well. There's a lingering PS1 culture that breathes a little life into Faction loyalty, but outside of that the player culture seems apathetic at best.

Double EXP days just seem to bring out the worst of it, there are Medics killing Medics over who gets revive EXP, people blowing up friendly Sunderers to deploy their own (and no it's rarely about bad placement)... Really it's like those awful Blackfriday events where people are trampling each other for the 50% off Toaster. Also, this behavior can be found among Outfit and non Outfit players alike. I know there's some great big Outfits that really help this game, but don't assume they're all good.

PS2 desperately needs a meaningful Metagame, where players benefit or suffer as an entire Faction. Being F2P and FF, the game also needs a lot of active policing, with bans handed out to repeat offenders who are working against their own Faction.

[Rivenshield]

Originally Posted by Malorn

The OP isn't crazy - I've observed the same behavior lately, especially late at night.

/puts tech pubs glasses on, rubs hands

You're our man on the inside, Malorn. Preach the gospel of defensibility and put it into practice as often as you can, so that people can look at their maps and good fights have a chance to coalesce.

Here are some quick but vital fixes:

1) End XP for capping empty bases. NOW. Implementing dynamic XP for *individual* kills is prolly a coding nightmare, but I fail to understand why it can't be done in short order for bases. No gunfire, no XP. Half a dozen stalwarts, eh, a little XP. Raging-ass battle, full amount and maybe a bonus tacked on for each half an hour.

2) There is no incentive for stubborn defense among the instant-gratification mid/late teen target audience -- the ones Smed apparently hopes to harvest -- if they can instantly swap sides and happily join the attackers. We had an eight-hour cooldown timer a decade ago. We need one now, for God's sake.

3) Spawn rooms need to be protected from vehicle spam. The only way I can think of accomplishing this with existing base/outpost design is to connect the spawn room to another nearby building via covered hallway. The hallway itself should have multiple doors. That gives the defenders more avenues of egress and makes the problem more complex for the attackers.

That's for starters. I've worked on a few enterprise software development projects myself as a technical writer, so I don't want to fall into the twin traps of feature bloat and 'it's easy because I don't understand it.' But... those are three quick (?) fixes I *think* can be implemented relatively painlessly in the near future.

Nice-to-haves include:

4) In the fullness of time, if they could include a spawn shield generator that's close by and easy to defend, I think that'd also help end the lame five-minute ritual of 'overrun base, camp spawn, farm people dumb enough to jump out.' Also, make spawn tubes destructible. Give the attacker the fierce joy of gunning the bastards in their tubes, as we did of old. Decisive victory is fun.

5) Make everything SMALLER. Good God those bases are huge. Having a few megacomplexes the size of small cities is fine, but in the main a base should be defensible with sixty or seventy warm bodies.... and that, frankly is all the game will support without lag or rendering issues. Clear some of the clutter -- not all -- out of the courtyard and bring in the walls by a third. Tighten them up.

6) I hate launch pads. They're stupid. They take away from the hard-SF feel. They're a video-game device inserted into an online war. That said, if you're going to have them in the game at all, make them usable by the defenders alone so we can't be overrun by a handful of enemies bouncing around like fleas with high explosives. Defense with launch pads that can be employed by both sides is impossible-- full stop.

7) Turrets need to be buffed. They're stationary and highly visible and they can't take cover, and they are magnets for all kinds of fire. I think the answer is to provide them with shields, same as infantry have. Perhaps this could be one of the benefits tied into ownership of an amp station.

8) Nerf grenades. Having an instakill weapon when there's 32 of you per side and clusters of 2-4 people are rare is one thing. When there's 50-100+ packed into stairwells it's a bit different. I've got 3/4ths my flak armor certed on my HA tree, and it makes no perceptible difference. I cannot count the number of enjoyable small-unit actions I've been in that have been ruined by a single grenade. It currently does no good to take a knee and be patient... you can only dance around like an idiot and the instant you see the bouncy red thing, RUN. Half the time you still die. Instagib weapons indoors that involve a minimum of shooter skill have no place in the already-lethal environment of a massive online FPS.

9) One big reason people enjoy attacking and taking bases is because you get the Pavlovian popup with POINTS! and MUSIC! and the NPC commander telling you how good you did. Do the same for the defenders. Rather than offering a small but user-transparent bonus on top of normal XP, increment them and roll them together every five minutes or so. BLING! BONUS DEFENSE XP!11!!1! and a big fat number that tells them how much they got ON TOP of their normal experience. It's a cosmetic thing.

10) With antitank mines, we can merely lay booby traps for individual tanks. We can't lay minefields. And minefields were, as you recall, one of the ways we used to attrit the attackers along chokepoints and in our own courtyards. We hardly ever *killed* anybody or anything with them, unless they were dumb or careless, but they helped. Bring back the mine from PS1 -- deployable only outside and only in friendly territory, and unable to kill anything but an infiltrator with one hit -- and let us cert the ability to lay up to ten of the buggers. Call it the General Purpose Mine, the GPM. You want to slow down battles a bit? You want a remedy for the tank spam? You want to promote strategic gameplay? Bring back MINEFIELDS!

Any or all of these can remedy the phenomenon of ghost-zerging by making traditional stubborn defense fun and rewarding -- and most of all, *possible.*. Best of luck to you and yours, and thanks for staying in touch. I hope you got something useful out of the wall of text.

[Stanis]

Originally Posted by Malorn

This is what I typically see in larger groups - players roll around in a blob from territory to territory getting capture XP and avoiding the enemy. When the blobs meet it is by chance, not intent. When players try to stop the blob they usually get rolled and have little choice but to find their own team's blob and roll with it. Larger outfits have the numbers to chance this behavior, which is why I don't see it on ops. Seen several reddit threads pop up about this sort of thing too.

Seems to be a combination of playing the territory control game + path of least resistance....but it isn't fun...at all. Its the exact opposite of what I experience in outfit play where we intentionally go after the enemy and pick fights because that's where the entertainment is.

Any feedback from the PSU community on contributing factors to this behavior? I have my own thoughts but I'd like to learn what y'all think is going on here.

• Complete lack of defenders advantage. By this I mean very few tactics withstand superior numbers.
• lack/unclear of linear objectives. we play ring around the base stamping out fires. defenders can't defend that many multiple choices.
• Current dominance of air.
• Lack of metagame objectives to influence strategy

I shall run through each.

Defenders should be in a better position than the attackers inside a base they control.
The enemy can put a sunderer next to one of the half a dozen objectives they might choose to target. Probably two as outside the walls is a fair distance apart. The defenders are stuck with maybe one sundie inside the base due to interference ranges. Friendly sundies inside base should have half/50m radius.

Who put walls around a base and then left two 20m gaps infantry can run through? We have light assault. We have galaxies. We have teleporters and jump pads. We have shield-diffusers.

Those walls are to complex. Plain walls with merlons on the outer edge only

The objectives are not linear. They might need to take the wall shields to get vehicles into the CY. But there is nothing stopping them taking the central shields first. In the case of satellite bases they can flip those first and get teleporters into the bases.

I'd like to say teleporters and jump pads are atrocius in that they remove the defenders ability to hold a line. And make the intervening distance pointless.
In the case of Biolabs the jump pads are ok. They get you onto the pads. There are two entrances.
The teleports - are just wrong. They should be for the defending empire only.


Make objectives linear.

• satellite base to secure spawn point (attackers must destroy teleporter generator to prevent defenders coming through it)
• Put a shield on the "infantry wall gap". add a 20m vertical shield to the wall.
• add 'shield generator' to one of the satellite bases. this opens the infantry wall gap and means LA can jumpjet over the wall. without this only drops/diffuser can get in.
• inner base shields are also protected by the vehicle shields (infantry cant get to inner base gens until CY is taken)
• take down inner shields
• capture base or take down spawn gen

This makes the areas or points to defend known. Right now we are playing ring around the base attacker or defending it. It's a lovely deathmatch, but a terrible war effort.

The spawn rooms. How easy it is to camp them. Whether by infantry or vehicle. Plenty of suggestions about improvements to be made there.


If this sounds like the base can't be taken. That's kind of the point. With equal numbers the defenders should win. Handily.
Even outnumbered. 3:2. The defenders should win.
This is why metagame is so important. I have replied to Malorns post about "big outfits" with suggestions for every outpost and hex to have a purpose. Such as comm arrays. Shield-generators. intel facilities.
Players defending a base have to balance defence of those outposts and facilities. This is why the base falls - the defenders can't afford to just lose all that territory.
This gives us a rich metagame full of strategy.

Air can respawn in sanctuary. Bomber and Pilot, swap roles when one dies. 2 man teams can remain in the air fairly consistently. They have the freedom of movement to trundle around - short of strong enemy A2A ESF they don't have natural predators that. At first sign of ground based AA they bug out.

There is not a "no mans land" for air. No automated turrets.
Base turrets are virtually all limited in firing arc. They are certainly static. No turret every snuck up and suprised the air craft. They turrets take forever to repair compare to their TTK.
Also, some idiot put the AA turrets on the out edges of the base in clear line of sight for AV weapons. They should have been at the centre of foxholes on each turret - enclosed and protected.
AA turrets just don't offer enough bang. Fixed AA emplacement should clear the sky. No really they should.
Teamwork and co-ordination should be necessary to prevent that AA turret defending the base successfully.
(All the same arugments apply to AI and AV turret)

This gives us the current situation of anyone with a bit of teamwork using air - it works and is apex predator.

Maxes, Skyguard. They are needed in such numbers to act as a deterrent let alone a viable kill force. You get 50 aircraft overhead it's too late to start trying to take them out of the sky.



Finally the metagame.
What 30 men do on the other side of the continent should influence the strategic decisions for the whole continent.
A rapid response outfit or platoon may choose to grind kills instead - but they must ignore that at their peril.

Hexes and outposts should have a purpose. See huge-outfit thread.