Gameplay: MAX Melee Arm (Sacrifice a gun for better melee)

Zekeen · 2012-07-05, 01:30 PM

Now, before anyone starts getting their imaginations running wild, this isn't about some uber melee ability. It's the sacrificing of one of your arm guns for an ENHANCED melee attack. No insta kill (usually). Flamethrowers are still better DPS, but this will be hard instant hitting.

This idea is rather basic: As MAX units can melee bash with an arm as is, add in EMPIRE SPECIFIC melee arm types to allow that melee attack to do more damage or create an effect (such as knockback), at the expense of one of the guns..

There's a variety of weapon styles that could be done, and if a knockback effect was plausible, a variety of weapons for different outcomes as well.

Think of it like this - an Armored Fist weapon lets you knock the opponent back, but some sort of blade weapon lets you do more damage. Maybe even one weapon does better damage against infantry, other MAX units, or even vehicles.

If this was included, we would have an entire new weapon set to customize and enjoy.

A few notes to think on about this though-

-Can dual wield, but not use both at one time (to use an AI or AV types, ect)
-Is an instant heavy damage dealer, but Flamethrower does more DPS in the end.
-Is short ranged (some weapons with slightly longer range)
-If MAX shields were added, would go great with them http://www.planetside-universe.com/s...ad.php?t=42170
-More fun than useful, but helps fit into more player gameplay styles
-Variations include +damage, knockback, range, visual distortion, ect
-Does different damage to different enemy types depending on the variant used.

Now, to give you a bit of a thought on what you could expect for this.

NC
Armored Fist
Rock Crusher Drill (less circular, more gruesome)
Pike Buster (gunpowder driven metal spike)

TR
Chainsaws across forearm
Metal Blades on arm
MAX form of brass knuckles

VS
Energy blades
Electric Fist
Claws
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Refined Notes- Seeing as this thread has almost no negative thoughts toward anything more than simple OP fears, I'm fleshing out the idea some more to present some facts it should have and "possibly" could have, since no one wants it too overpowered. I'll update as great suggestions are made, even if they have only a sparkle of hope to them.

Variation of attack types -

Knockback - This is an effect that can stagger and enemy a moment, and push them back a little. This is not a long duration, and these weapons knock back a shorter time than it takes to recharge it. They can attack with their other weapon (if it's not melee) before they finish the stagger. Ex- Stagger lasts 1 second, can fire second gun in .5 seconds, but can only attack with melee every 2-4 seconds. This prevents continuous staggering, ie, griefing.

Vehicle Knockback - Rather than staggering infantry and MAXes, this effect would have a bit of fun with physics and push vehicles a little, depending on their size. When striking a tank, it generally spin a little, maybe tilts a bit on the initial impact, but also prevents the turret from moving when hit as well as stop movement. This effect only lasts a moment, and the recharge takes longer. The tank can still fire when hit. This is a 1-2 second "stagger" for a vehicle, but rather than being used to hurt the vehicle, this is used to stop it from hurting you or your allies. To disrupt its aim and movement for a brief moment to force it to reposition and aim at its target again. One use of it, is to spin the tank into enemy infantry with it.

Swinging Weapons - These are weapons that have a swing arc rather than a direct impact. They can hit much easier, and some can damage multiple opponents (which is rare to see multiple allow a MAX to get so close). Generally bladed AI weaponry, don't expect to find a line of ATVs or MAXes to hit multiple with, but AV swinging types is to allow ease of hitting the target.

Direct Impact - These are much more powerful melee weapons, but can only hit a single enemy and are much harder to aim, as it's like a single shot gun, aim on them and hit them. These do more damage than swinging weapons, take more skill, and generally are the ones with knockback and such. There are more anti vehicle/MAX weapons in the direct class than anti infantry.

Range of Melee Weapons - Some weapons, like an armored fist, are heavy hitting close ranged weapons. Others, like a long bladed arm, have more range and less power. Range is a tradeoff based on the weapon types. Maybe instead of a basic Pike Buster, the arm has more of a lance type, long direct impact with the same mechanics but lessened power. These adds more variety to how melee would work.

Visual Distortion - Ever been punched by a hundred pounds of metal? You might suffer a concussion. When someone is struck with some of the heavier class of weapons, they get a moment of fizzle in their vision. This lasts farless than a second, but anything that messes up even a nano second of your vision can offset your aim, train of thought, ect. It also would make you feel like you just got whacked by a MAX. It gives a moment of static to vehicles that get hit.

Anti MAX Weapons - MAX units are slow, they are brutal, and when two MAX units meet face to face, sometimes you need something "special". Including weapons of the above categories that help bust up another MAX would surely add variety.

DoT Weapons - Just like flamethrowers, weapons that do a continuous attack. In case you hate swinging and missing. These weapons would be drills NC, chainsaws TR, energy cutters VS. What's not to like? Don't you wanna drill, saw, cut a tank that isn't moving?!

Alternative Stagger - Now, staggering is very very negative thing in many games. Drives some people insane, even if it lasts a nano second. It takes away control, many hate that. If basic stagger is too much, here is an alternative idea. Instead of making them stagger back ala L4D, have them take a few steps back and get turned to the side from the hit. It's like you're getting pushed and reaction can make you regain your position quicker. Skill over stats.

Set Enemies on FIRE!- Just kidding, this would be retarded. Just seeing if you're paying attention.

Possible Inclusions - These are ideas that could make or break the entire concept. Additions of abilities that might be overpowered, or give an addition of fun that might just make it even more worthwhile.

Running Charge - We've seen it in strategy games for years, getting to top speed and getting a charge bonus to a melee weapon on the first attack. PS1 had MAX run ability, if PS2 allowed MAX units to run, why not add a melee bonus at top speed, so a MAX charging a hundred+ feet gets a bonus to anyone dumb enough not to sidestep. Can it REALLY be that overpowered at that point?

Melee Enhancer - Maybe some weapons can have a secondary to charge up their attack, with penalties for the user. Maybe make the MAX 10-20% slower when charged? Make the charge up take a moment (such as spinning up a drill to the desired RPM). And give one HELL of a loud, TERRIFYING SOUND! (NC would sound like a dentists office from Hell). This lasts for one solid, heavy hitting knock out punch! I don't think I would complain if a MAX killed me with full health heavy armor if they used some sort of super bladed uppercut I should have heard, seen, and watched a mile away.

Shoulder Slam - A little iffy, but a fun thought. As with running charge, maybe a special weapon to let a MAX push people out of the way, doing far less damage, obvious, but could let a MAX get somewhere when it's blocked.

Tripping MAXes - If MAXes can run, they should also be able to FALL!

blackfang · 2012-07-05, 01:52 PM

I would say, allow duel wield and two melee weapons kill instantly. Then people might actually drop melee units, normal units can just kite them. So no problem for them

Gonzo · 2012-07-05, 03:12 PM

I would support this purely for the potential to stage a MAX fighting ring in a foothold. Everyone likes watching giant robots beat each other up, right?

However, I don't see a whole lot of usefulness for this idea if MAXs already have a fairly powerful melee. We'll have to see how effective the standard attack is.

Purple · 2012-07-05, 03:20 PM

if you want a close combat for max just go duel flamethrowers. this is a first person SHOOTER game not a first person MELEE game.

Zekeen · 2012-07-05, 04:07 PM

Originally Posted by Gonzo

I would support this purely for the potential to stage a MAX fighting ring in a foothold. Everyone likes watching giant robots beat each other up, right?

However, I don't see a whole lot of usefulness for this idea if MAXs already have a fairly powerful melee. We'll have to see how effective the standard attack is.

Right! But it's basically to cater to individuals who would prefer a nice knockout slam from around a corner. It wouldn't be very useful, it's all about having more options!

Originally Posted by Purple

if you want a close combat for max just go duel flamethrowers. this is a first person SHOOTER game not a first person MELEE game.

As I stated, dual Flamethrowers would be better DPS, you ALSO can hurt MULTIPLE ENEMIES at once with a flamethrower, it's FAR superior. But if you think about PS1, the knife was almost useless for the SAME REASON. People still liked it, let some people enjoy their melee MAX for any bizarre tactic they can think it up, and just set them all on fire for messing with you! It's just giving some individuals another way to do something, even if it's not all that great. Some like using the less used weapons because they can surprise or humiliate their enemies.

OutlawDr · 2012-07-05, 04:43 PM

Originally Posted by Purple

if you want a close combat for max just go duel flamethrowers. this is a first person SHOOTER game not a first person MELEE game.

And yet we have melee weapons and maxes can already do melee damage. Melee options are ok as long as they don't become the focus.

The first thing that came to my mind when I read this thread was powerfits from WH40k. The cool thing about them in that game is that they were best employed against tanks and big dudes.

I agree that a MAX melee weapon should do less DPS than a flamethrower against infantry, however give them the versatility of also doing decent damage against MAX and Vehicles. They wouldn't be the best anit-infantry/MAX/vehicle weapon, but they do decent damage against all of them. A versatile weapon with the drawback of it being a close range weapon on a slow unit.

You can then slightly mix up the damage against these 3 unit types depending on the melee type. Blades do a bit more against infantry. Fists are best for fighting another MAX. And Drills/chiansaws do a bit more against vehicles. Again, just slight variations to promote customization options (and get people to the shop).

Sledgecrushr · 2012-07-05, 07:41 PM

100% love this idea

dookie · 2012-07-05, 09:04 PM

I think it an excellent idea. Even if it isnt the most effective weapon loadout, then people simply wont use them. But allowing me the chance to smash someones face in is brilliant. I would to see i.

Kriegson · 2012-07-05, 10:04 PM

I love the idea, especially with MAX shields in mind to boot. I probably wouldn't use them together, though that could prove a powerful, indoor only combination.

Ultimately, I think the only detractors from this are going to be those who think adding a melee enhancer (The option already exists) will somehow ruin the game, or people who feel it would be useless and adds nothing.

Though you can counter the latter argument with the fact that knives exist in the game, and likely still have their secondary feature (active ability) which is in itself a melee enhancer, and the former argument is mostly hyperbole.

MorioMortis · 2012-07-05, 10:09 PM

I like this idea, it reminds me of WH40k. For those who don't know, one of the factions, the space marines, have heavy armor suits with an assortment of melee and ranged weapons (pretty close to MAXs in concept and execution, the standard infantry being close to HA level of armor and firepower), called Terminators, like this one :

(Note that this is a melee variant, the standard equipment is the equivalent of a dual rocket launcher on one arm and a super-powered fist on the other, and that the WH40k universe has always been quite keen on the whole melee thing)

As for the gameplay itself, I think it fills a certain niche in base assaults, if you need to take out a heavily dug in enemy force with lots of armor/MAX's in a confined space where standard heavy ordnance is too risky for friendly fire. Plus, they would be great for most MAX crashes, as you tend to end up pretty much in melee anyways, especially if the MAX's keep the sprint ability. Also, if we end up with an equipable knife (which, from what I can see of the community here, would be much better than the current quick knife), the MAX could use some slightly larger equivalent, even if it doesn't do more damage (if only for esthetic reasons, although I think having it do more damage, but with a slower equip/refire rate, would be a better fit).

Accuser · 2012-07-05, 11:14 PM

I don't remember any point in the E3 footage where a softie was dumb enough to get into melee with an enemy Max. Imo, a dedicated anti-infantry melee weapon should 1-shot an infil and 2-shot any other softie that is that stupid.

Also, I love the idea of having melee weapons that are effective against other Maxes. I would hope that these would be even better than flame throwers against enemy Maxes and safer than AV since there's no splash damage.

I'm not 100% sure about Maxes doing a ton of melee damage to vehicles though. It might be nearly impossible for the driver or gunner to get an angle on him, and friendlies would just destroy the tank trying to hit the Max...

OutlawDr · 2012-07-06, 12:02 AM

More Space Marine examples... with a powerfist

Again,the overall DPS of these MAX melee weapons should be slightly less their ranged weapon equivalent...even its only slightly less. The advantage should be that they do good damage against all unit types. Another is that they have low RoF, but does a lot of damage per hit which allows you to take opponents by surprise with burst damage...like Zekeen suggested. However a MAX with dual AV weapons should easily take out a MAX with a melee weapon...even if the melee weapon is a "anti-MAX" melee weapon like I suggested.

I'm not 100% sure about Maxes doing a ton of melee damage to vehicles though. It might be nearly impossible for the driver or gunner to get an angle on him, and friendlies would just destroy the tank trying to hit the Max...

First of all, it wouldn't be a ton of damage. Remember, its going to do less than a single AV weapon. Second, if a max is allowed to get that close to a vehicle, they deserve to get wrecked. I see MAX using this primarily against vehicles that are in tight quarters they have no business being in.

Soyokaze · 2012-07-06, 01:41 AM

Ok, please, can they do extra damage if they attack from a run?

Can you imagine an NC MAX slamming an arm mounted pile-driver into you with all of it's gurth behind it? Or a VS MAX using it's jets to add a bit of extra force to it's plasma bladed slash?

That being said, while I'd love it, it should be sub-optimal save for lucky situations. If anything, including a running bonus could ensure that if you get melee'd to death by a MAX, you deserve it.
They need open ground to run and thus are going to be a distance from you when they start, can barely turn at all, are loud as hell, and are a hard to stop once they're going. The only exception to this would be in long, straight, interior hallways and, honestly, I've got no problem with a MAX running headlong, chainsaw arm extended, into massed defending troops in an attempt to break the line.

Karrade · 2012-07-06, 03:51 AM

Originally Posted by Soyokaze

Ok, please, can they do extra damage if they attack from a run?

Can you imagine an NC MAX slamming an arm mounted pile-driver into you with all of it's gurth behind it? Or a VS MAX using it's jets to add a bit of extra force to it's plasma bladed slash?

That being said, while I'd love it, it should be sub-optimal save for lucky situations. If anything, including a running bonus could ensure that if you get melee'd to death by a MAX, you deserve it.
They need open ground to run and thus are going to be a distance from you when they start, can barely turn at all, are loud as hell, and are a hard to stop once they're going. The only exception to this would be in long, straight, interior hallways and, honestly, I've got no problem with a MAX running headlong, chainsaw arm extended, into massed defending troops in an attempt to break the line.

While I like the concept, we'd need some counter to this, like webbing or a trip/tangle wire?

Maybe an LA + Medic ability to tangle max charges, thus defense against a charge/crash will still be possible.

Soyokaze · 2012-07-06, 04:16 AM

Well, there are always the EMP grenades from PS1 which I kinda assumed would make a return. Anything they take from the forums, however, will be simple. Adding A necessitating the addition of B is exactly what they don't want.

I more assumed that the charging would be a way to limit the MAX's melee, in that it wasn't incredibly effective without putting one's weight behind it.

A recovery period in which one can not move or attack is also worth considering.