Improvement: Removing reviving from medics

War Barney · 2014-02-11, 10:04 PM

Simple idea, one which I'm sure many will instantly scream *oh no you noob I hate you blah blah blah* before even reading this or thinking it through, but let me explain.

Reviving might seem like a good idea, you die and instantly you're back! your platoon wipes and instantly it gets revived by a revive grenade! BUT reviving has 2 major flaws.

1. A minor flaw this one, it makes you feel like you didn't accomplish anything at times. By this I mean those great plays you make now and then where you sneak behind the enemy, lay down 2 C4 to blow up 10 people then kill a few others before you die! Great you think that'll open up a gap people can push through! Then as the camera zooms out you see a revive grenade explode and everybody who died stand right up again so you basically did nothing except give yourself some score

Sure some people might say *But isn't the point of this game to not help your team but get a good k/d ratio and some score!*. Well for some it might be but for me it is most certainly not, as such its very disheartening when I manage to do something like this or kill a MAX only to see a medic instantly bring them back. I'm sure most people know that MAXs aren't easy to kill, so on those rare occasions where you kill one alone its VERY disheartening to see a medic pop up a second later and revive it making your work pointless.

2. This is a major issue, some people might try to tell you that revives help small groups against larger ones that massively outnumber them, often known as a *zerg*, this however is NOT so, it is in fact the opposite. Think of it like this, a small group defending a base will be unable to wipe the enemy out, perhaps they can take out the tanks and sundie but a complete wipe will often be impossible, they also have a base nearby to spawn from so a medic reviving is quite useless really.

HOWEVER! the zerg will never be wiped until a group just as large encounters it! this means the will generally have medics alive who can revive anybody who dies meaning that not only do they not need to spawn as sundie which would need to be further away from the base thus giving you a chance to take the point back for a time to hold out till help comes or just slow the zerg down, but it also can mean the zerg doesn't even NEED sundies as medics will revive anybody who dies. Now of course a sundie is still vital as some people will die out of reviving range and it encourages people to join the fight, but medics in a zerg are a very powerful force, especially thanks to being able to carry 4 revive grenades.

Now I know some people will say *but what about when attacking a base thats defended by more people!*, well again I say, the small force will be wiped out when attacked by a larger group that has its spawn right next to you, no amount of medics will help if you're entire group is wiped unless you have medics who also have stealth (also known as hackers). As such you can see there really is no benefit for a small group when it comes to reviving but it is a really big benefit to zergs who already have the benefit of being a zerg.

So this raises the question, why is there a mechanic in the game which sole purpose seems to be giving a zerg an even greater advantage? don't most games which to stop zergs or give people tools to fight them? why then does PS2 give zergs tools to be even more effective!

And thus I believe it would be a great benefit to the game both in terms of peoples enjoyment and improved tactical play if revive was removed and medics compensated in some other way for this.

And please don't try to say *just kill the medics first* as its about the stupidest counter argument in the world, if you want to post a video of yourself fighting a 200 man zerg and moving through it like a ninja killing only the medics while not being killed by anybody else, and managing to kill EVERY medic as leaving even 1 means it will revive the rest and cause a chain reaction, feel free. I would dearly love to see somebody do this as I believe it to be frankly, impossible. Again a single squad perhaps you could do this assuming the medics are idiots who fight on the front line instead of holding back, but when it comes to 2 or 3 platoons charging toward a base saying *Just kill the medics* becomes about the stupidest thing you could ever say.

Edit: This could be updated to instead of removing revive make it so you can shoot enemies while they are on the ground to prevent them from being revived. This solves the issue of needing to think of something to replace revive and adds a whole new level of tactics

SgtMAD · 2014-02-12, 07:38 AM

quit trying to dumb the game down because you refuse to deal with the problems you encounter, all you want is everything that you can't deal with nerfed.

leave the rest of us alone and go find a game that offers the lame simple gameplay you desire.

this is the kind of crap that killed the original PlanetSide.

War Barney · 2014-02-12, 08:23 AM

Would you care to explain how removing reviving is *dumbing down* the game? If any reviving being included dumbs down the game as it encourages people to not care if they die and just rambo it up. No revive means people would be forced to try harder to survive adding a whole new dynamic of teamwork and tactics.

Or are you trying to say spamming revive grenades is an incredibly complex strategy?

Baneblade · 2014-02-12, 09:20 AM

Reviving is too quick and easy for sure. There are many times I ice a guy only to have him being rezzed by someone I can't see in less time than it takes to reload... and it isn't even a TR reload.

War Barney · 2014-02-12, 10:30 AM

Indeed, reviving grenades allow people to revive HUGE numbers of people and it literally takes less time to revive somebody with full health than it takes to kill somebody right now.

Sarloh · 2014-02-13, 09:00 AM

Yup, you've got a good point there. Without reviving the attackers will get the chance to push through a defense...
But as good as your statement sounds I have an argument to it; it might get furstrating when, for examlpe, you are attacking and running in an open field or far away from your respawn point meaning that you will have to run the sane distance over and over again. And there are also trolls and accidents; for example, my outfit (382nd, TR, Waterson) likes to take a screenshot of our forces standing together from time to time. We go a certain lenght, and get set when a troll galaxy crashes into us and kills us which means that we have to travel again, get disorganised and to it again possibly do it without everybody in the picture. Also if a small group of friends hangs out and some friendly fore occours medics becogme quite usefull.
So I agree that removing the revive has it's ups but it also has some downs.

And now people observe as I just made an argument without going troll and raging all over the place.

War Barney · 2014-02-13, 10:06 AM

It could be made that you can shoot people after *killing* them so they can't be revived. This way reviving is still a thing to stop things getting to annoying but you can shoot people you kill a few more time to make sure they are to dead to get back up again.

This would actually add a cool new level of tactics as it could end up with people splitting squads into those who do the initial killing then a couple of guys who hang back and shoot everybody whos been killed to stop them getting revived. Or it leaves you the choice, do you press quickly through the enemy hoping for a wipe or slowly go stopping people reviving as you go so you might give the enemy a chance to group together but all the people you kill wont be getting back up again

Baneblade · 2014-02-13, 12:21 PM

A killing blow system could work. It was common practice is real life warfare for a long time. Perhaps make quick knife only work on corpses, but it keeps them from being revived.

CraazyCanuck · 2014-02-13, 12:32 PM

I would love to see reviving removed. It would indeed be a game changer. If it can't be removed then slowed down. If it can't be slowed down then allow a counter to the revive grenade/reviving. Allow a variation of it. An anti-revive grenade/placement whose duration matches the null timer for reviving a person. Everything needs a counter. Disrupt Grenade/Placement. I also think they shouldn't be grenades. It should take some more work to pull it off. Have them placed akin to C4, so medics would actually have to enter harms way to bring back their allies from the dead instead of lobbing the jesus bomb, or richochetting it off a wall to avoid being shot at etc.

Those disruptors can be countered by an EMP grenade to open the way for your medics to come back in and try to recoup some losses in what remains of the revive timer. Hacking sundies should be added in as well. Don't have to allow the infiltrator to steal possession but could at least allow the spawning to be halted until they are counterhacked and the 'disruptive nanite virus' removed.

CraazyCanuck · 2014-02-13, 01:30 PM

What if instead/in addition to the suggestions I made above for counters, they made the revive gun 'ammo' dependent? Not ammo specifically but have a finite number of revives tied to each rank of certification? Each rank increase the amount allowed before forcing the medic to return to a terminal or sundy to top up.

Figment · 2014-07-08, 12:57 PM

Originally Posted by CraazyCanuck

What if instead/in addition to the suggestions I made above for counters, they made the revive gun 'ammo' dependent? Not ammo specifically but have a finite number of revives tied to each rank of certification? Each rank increase the amount allowed before forcing the medic to return to a terminal or sundy to top up.

If only there was a game that had:

Limited medical juice where each heal and each revive costs a certain amount of "medical ammunition".

I just keep forgetting the name of that game... Something with a P.

Zadexin · 2014-02-14, 05:02 PM

I don't think revive should be removed, that is overkill. It needs to be fixed, like so many mechanics in this game.

How to fix it:
1) The medic must be physically on top of the downed player. No more reviving from around corners
2) make the heal gun for healing only, not both. Take out the gun revive and make it a resupply able item like the heal sticks that you can cert, except that you can use it on other people. you can carry 2 to start and cert into up to 6. And make it a full revive.
3) It needs to take longer to revive someone than healing them with the gun. Right now it is more efficient to let someone die and revive them than to heal them.
4) Take out res grenade (seriously, who thought this up?) and put in a shield charger pack. A timed deployable item like an ammo pack except that it causes shields to recharge rapidly instead of health. Make it cost resources so it doesn't get spammed too hard.

They gave us personal shields (for some reason) instead of an armor bar or a bigger health bar, and then completely ignored it with game mechanics other than the one cert thing that nobody gets. Why not give the medic tools to buff the shield if they really are the infantry support role.

GNN · 2014-06-24, 12:48 PM

Originally Posted by Zadexin

I don't think revive should be removed, that is overkill. It needs to be fixed, like so many mechanics in this game.

How to fix it:
1) The medic must be physically on top of the downed player. No more reviving from around corners
2) make the heal gun for healing only, not both. Take out the gun revive and make it a resupply able item like the heal sticks that you can cert, except that you can use it on other people. you can carry 2 to start and cert into up to 6. And make it a full revive.
3) It needs to take longer to revive someone than healing them with the gun. Right now it is more efficient to let someone die and revive them than to heal them.
4) Take out res grenade (seriously, who thought this up?) and put in a shield charger pack. A timed deployable item like an ammo pack except that it causes shields to recharge rapidly instead of health. Make it cost resources so it doesn't get spammed too hard.

They gave us personal shields (for some reason) instead of an armor bar or a bigger health bar, and then completely ignored it with game mechanics other than the one cert thing that nobody gets. Why not give the medic tools to buff the shield if they really are the infantry support role.

great points. the revive grenade a horrible, horrible mechanic.

War Barney · 2014-06-25, 02:04 PM

Originally Posted by Zadexin

I don't think revive should be removed, that is overkill. It needs to be fixed, like so many mechanics in this game.

How to fix it:
1) The medic must be physically on top of the downed player. No more reviving from around corners
2) make the heal gun for healing only, not both. Take out the gun revive and make it a resupply able item like the heal sticks that you can cert, except that you can use it on other people. you can carry 2 to start and cert into up to 6. And make it a full revive.
3) It needs to take longer to revive someone than healing them with the gun. Right now it is more efficient to let someone die and revive them than to heal them.
4) Take out res grenade (seriously, who thought this up?) and put in a shield charger pack. A timed deployable item like an ammo pack except that it causes shields to recharge rapidly instead of health. Make it cost resources so it doesn't get spammed too hard.

They gave us personal shields (for some reason) instead of an armor bar or a bigger health bar, and then completely ignored it with game mechanics other than the one cert thing that nobody gets. Why not give the medic tools to buff the shield if they really are the infantry support role.

I'd be much happier with these changes, right now medics are mini gods, they have insanely powerful short-medium range guns and can do aoe heals and revives and revive VERY quickly (about a second for a full hp revive at max tool level) and on top of that the new energy shield generator lets you revive people and very quickly refill their shield too... they just have WAY to many tools right now.

Its the equivalent of heavies being allowed to carry 3 separate launchers so we can have 1 for air vehicles and dumb fire use.

DviddLeff · 2014-07-05, 06:06 PM

While I think reviving is a small problem, I certainly do not want to see it removed.

I fully support a system where head shots prevent revives, along with a coupe de grace style execution of fallen enemies so that once they go down, they stay down.

I'd also like to have the death camera follow the players view as they fall until they choose to revive or respawn.