Tank-mounted AA and buggies in PS2

[FIREk]

First of all, we all agree that buggies are awesome, right? Empire-specific ones, of course - the Harasser was a waste of space.

I know that buggies haven't yet been announced for PS2, but info about tank-mounted AA makes me worry that they won't be in.

After all, why design something that most likely won't be used?
A buggy would be statistically inferior to a tank in every meaningful way.
A tank will always have superior main weaponry, both against squishies and vehicles.
And even if a buggy had a proper, dedicated AA gun, like the flak cannon on the Skyguard, it would be more convenient to just roll out a tank with decent AA. Let's face it, a month after launch every single tank will roll out with secondary AA.

Also, if they looked to Battlefield for thoughts on how buggies work in modern games, they would determine that they suck balls and aren't worth implementing. Buggies in Battlefield are made out of paper, are barely armed, and can at best be used for lulz, stunts and as C4 buckets.
While they may not go to BF's extreme, vehicles in PS2 will likely be less durable than in PS1, so a "modern" buggy may end up being so fragile, that it's actually useless, unless it gets some special abilities like immunity to mines, so that it can use its strongest trait - mobility - to its full extent.

On a side note, just how awesome would it be to drive a Marauder (assuming it's still as rednecky as it was in PS1) with a flak cannon?

[Senyu]

Make buggies more mobile, faster/harder to hit, give them more accurate weapons, and a wide arsenal and they will be used. Even with all the tanks.

[Sirisian]

Originally Posted by Senyu

Make buggies more mobile, faster/harder to hit, give them more accurate weapons, and a wide arsenal and they will be used. Even with all the tanks.

Exactly.

I think the harasser should get rid of its gun and just let the passenger shoot their rifle while sitting. Then let the third passenger in the back stand up out of a sunroof and shoot their rifle all while in rexo. AV would make this fun.

Always wanted a ground/air vehicle that let me shoot my gun out of it.

Not sure how the ES stuff should work.

[Malorn]

Originally Posted by Sirisian

Exactly.

I think the harasser should get rid of its gun and just let the passenger shoot their rifle while sitting. Then let the third passenger in the back stand up out of a sunroof and shoot their rifle all while in rexo. AV would make this fun.

Always wanted a ground/air vehicle that let me shoot my gun out of it.

Not sure how the ES stuff should work.

The harasser, if it comes back, should be more like a Humvee. It needs to have a weapon worth shooting on the top of it. Not some 12mm gun that tickles but a .50 caliber machinegun that infantry can't normally carry around. That's the reason they put it on a vehicle.

[FIREk]

Originally Posted by Malorn

Not some 12mm gun that tickles but a .50 caliber machinegun that infantry can't normally carry around.

.50 cal = roughly 12mm. Just sayin'. :P

Anyway, buggies should always have at least a weak, coaxial anti-infantry weapon, even if it's just the equivalent of a man-portable light machine gun.

So regardless of whether it's specced for anti-infantry (mortar), anti-vehicle (guided missile / autocannon) or anti-air (flak cannon), it should have at least a little bit of versatility. It's not like a tank with AA sacrifices anti-infantry capabilities, so a buggy shouldn't as well.

[Talek Krell]

I've been thinking about this myself. Higby talking about how the secondary weapons that the gunners get on tanks are just so awesome makes me think "But for it to attract a gunner it would have to be more effective than just running a skyguard" and then "But if it was more effective then why would you run a skyguard?" followed by "Wait....they haven't actually said there will be skyguards..."

Edit: I voted apathy though. I'd like to see them but I was never a user so it wouldn't break the game for me.

[Graywolves]

Marauder or GTFO

[FIREk]

Originally Posted by Talek Krell

I've been thinking about this myself. Higby talking about how the secondary weapons that the gunners get on tanks are just so awesome makes me think "But for it to attract a gunner it would have to be more effective than just running a skyguard" and then "But if it was more effective then why would you run a skyguard?" followed by "Wait....they haven't actually said there will be skyguards..."

Oh, I hope not to see another Skyguard ever - the model looked so out of place, I can't find a metaphor for it. :P

Customization is important in PS2, as it seems, so a Marauder/Vanguard/Thresher with AI/AA/AV weapons seems more likely (and awesome!).

[Goku]

I would like to see buggies put into PS2. I enjoyed my Enforcer quite a bit depending on the situations it was usable. Depending on the resource allocation buggies could see more of a dominant role until tanks could be used?

There have been numerous suggestions to improve buggies in PS that could be applied to PS2 as seen in this thread. One area I would like to see is more ability to transport more players to say at most 4 players. I liked the marauder due to how it had 3 seats for transport, I think a buggy like this that was beefed up a bit would be perfect. A main gun for a gunner and a machine gun to help against infantry/air. I would rather have buggies having the option to be the AA platform as opposed to a tank with their secondary too.

[Atuday]

Also Hamma is King

[Goku]

Originally Posted by Atuday

Also Hamma is King

Indeed.

Back on topic. If buggies were given the proper tools like different turrets they could be viable. I could see a group of buggies with anti-armor type guns just wreaking havoc on tanks and other heavier vehicles. With the ability to maneuver better and their higher speed it would be perfect for ambushes in my opinion.

[nomotog]

I thought the point of buggies in general was just to provide quick easy to get transport from place to place. Do they actually need a combat roll?

[Goku]

Originally Posted by nomotog

I thought the point of buggies in general was just to provide quick easy to get transport from place to place. Do they actually need a combat roll?

In my opinion yes. If I want to get to point a to b quickly I would probably just hop in a air craft anyway. I learned that one a long time ago. I don't care if it is even a gun less skeeter. I just want to get there.

[FIREk]

Originally Posted by nomotog

I thought the point of buggies in general was just to provide quick easy to get transport from place to place. Do they actually need a combat roll?

That's the Harasser and the ATVs. Cheap, expendable and pretty fast.

Empire-specific buggies had their use, but were in different stages of "broken", especially the Marauder's GroundPounder gun. In PS2 they could be designed to work well alongside other vehicles, especially if they had an AA option, making them PS2's Skyguards.

You can't argue that Skyguards were hella useful, yes?

[Malorn]

One key question would be what role does the buggy serve?

In PS1 they had a few roles...

1) Skyguard was fragile but fast AA defense. This seems obsolete with secondary weapons on tanks having the same function. I'm not sure I like this consolidation.

I liked the PS1 dynamic that Tanks were vulnerable to aircraft, and aircraft were vulnerable to some buggies. Thus you get a sort of combined-arms effect where you don't simply roll tanks or don't simply run a lot of aircraft because they have counters. Aircraft > Tanks > Buggies > Aircraft.

2) Buggies could be driven in Rexo, while all other vehicles only Agile armor. This made buggies good vehicles for the Rexo grunt to use to get to the battle or mess around with before going it on-foot. I liked this dynamic as well.

This too has been rendered obsolete in PS2 with any armor type being able to drive a tank.

3) Buggies were low-tech vehicles (except Skyguard), so you always had them available for use.

This might still be true in PS2 depending on whether tanks require resources.

4) Buggies were faster transportation than tanks, quick to cover the distance between bases or making good LLU-runners.

If they change pacing in PS2 this may no longer be relevant. ATVs still exist and ATVs can fill this same role. We haven't seen any indication of a return of the LLU so that is no longer necessary either.


5) Last, but certainly no least, buggies were fun to drive! Thresher was by far my favorite vehicle to drive around due to its great speed and maneuverability. I also loved driving the Enforcer.

The fun-factor certainly isn't obsolete yet!


As best I can tell all of the roles which a buggy excels are no longer relevant in PS2, save the fun factor. I would like them to be both fun and practical/relevant on the battlefield.

Of all of these, the Tank/Aircraft/Buggy balance concerns me the most. I'm a bit worried that the gameplay is being overly simplified down to tanks, tanks, and more tanks. I liked specialized vehicles because that leads to combined arms. Tanks being able to do everything means that vehicle combat revolves around coming up with the right combination of secondary weapons on the tanks.

No sure I like the one-size-fits-all approach. Going to think on it a bit. Perhaps there are new roles for buggies to operate.

One thing that is different about buggies too is that I don't think they are weapon systems where the driver has a gun. The rough equivalent of a Humvee or the like, but we can certainly put a lot more armor on them.