Israel

MightyMan · 2012-07-11, 11:12 AM

As an Israeli MAN, I just wanted to know your opinions about my country and all the shit storms around it, you know because of, well... Israel and Palestine and Iran and stuffs.
Fell free to discuss anything about Israel here.

Please be mature, don't be racist and respect other opinions.

If you have any questions or anything, I'l be happy to answer you with MY NEUTRAL OPINIONS.

ItsTheSheppy · 2012-07-11, 11:16 AM

It would be nice if you and your Muslim neighbors could stop killing and hating each other long enough to work together to build a better and more functional society. You might find they'll be less focused on having their own country if they felt welcomed in yours. I'm speaking more to your government and your culture as a whole rather than to just you, mind. I don't imagine its your fault personally.

It's just such a waste of time, having two cultures of people living in such close proximity who hate each other because they have different invisible friends. It's depressing, and a major source for a lot of unnecessary conflict in that region.

MightyMan · 2012-07-11, 12:04 PM

@ItsTheSheppy:
Believe me, hostility is not our choice, not the Israeli's and not the Palestine's.
It is the choice of the terrorist organisations around Israel and some of the countries that surround us.
There is a saying in Israel: "If Arabs would put down their weapons, there would be peace. If Israel would put down her weapons there would be no Israel".
This saying is not far from reality, and we don't really have a choice.

As funny as it may be, that is the reality in most of the hostile Islamic countries, and little kids are brain washed from youth, to hate all those who are not Islamic them selves, and some times even each other.

Originally Posted by Vreki

If you will forgive the expression, both sides are bastards.
But the Israeli are our kind of bastards, and their enemies are mostly our enemies.

And by "our kind" I do not mean race or religion, but a democracy with western values.

Not confusing at all.

ItsTheSheppy · 2012-07-11, 12:10 PM

I never meant to imply that Israel is solely at fault. You just happen to be from Israel so I'm talking mostly to you. If you find a Palestinian friend to come on here, I'll talk to him.

As has been said, both sides are kind of being bastards, and always have been. And really, it all boils down to one side thinking their imaginary friend is slightly LESS imaginary than the other side's. Cue centuries of bloodshed, that we will never be rid of for as long as religion is a thing people take seriously.

So yeah. that problem's never going away. Welcome to the forum.

MightyMan · 2012-07-11, 12:20 PM

Originally Posted by ItsTheSheppy

I never meant to imply that Israel is solely at fault. You just happen to be from Israel so I'm talking mostly to you. If you find a Palestinian friend to come on here, I'll talk to him.

As has been said, both sides are kind of being bastards, and always have been. And really, it all boils down to one side thinking their imaginary friend is slightly LESS imaginary than the other side's. Cue centuries of bloodshed, that we will never be rid of for as long as religion is a thing people take seriously.

So yeah. that problem's never going away. Welcome to the forum.

I never meant to imply you were implying that that Israel is solely at fault.
And I agree with you.

Vash02 · 2012-07-11, 01:39 PM

Originally Posted by MightyMan

@ItsTheSheppy:
There is a saying in Israel: "If Arabs would put down their weapons, there would be peace. If Israel would put down her weapons there would be no Israel".
This saying is not far from reality, and we don't really have a choice.

You could also say that the Palestinians put down their weapons and then there was no Palestine.
Why should Palestinians put down their weapons to lose what little they have left?

Baneblade · 2012-07-11, 04:22 PM

Everything was fine May 13th, 1948.

WildGunsTomcat · 2012-08-07, 11:16 PM

Originally Posted by ItsTheSheppy

It would be nice if you and your Muslim neighbors could stop killing and hating each other long enough to work together to build a better and more functional society. You might find they'll be less focused on having their own country if they felt welcomed in yours. I'm speaking more to your government and your culture as a whole rather than to just you, mind. I don't imagine its your fault personally.

It's just such a waste of time, having two cultures of people living in such close proximity who hate each other because they have different invisible friends. It's depressing, and a major source for a lot of unnecessary conflict in that region.

I agree.

As an aside: Neither Christ...Nor Muhammad...would want this. They both taught tolerance and peace, something the modern religious don't really have much of a grasp on.

Jesus would go to Chik-Fil-A...and break bread with a married gay couple. Guaranteed. I'm not even joking either. All of this bullshit about "Well he's not like me...and he doesn't believe what I believe...so he's going to some imagined hell..." Is BS. I patently reject the King James Bible. Humans are humans...gay...straight...black...white. We're all on the same ride...so why be hateful to each other? Why tell someone they're going to hell because they don't believe the same things you do, because a 2000 year old book says so? Do you think that a loving creator would banish someone to hell because they loved someone that a book says they shouldn't love? Rubbish. Unadulterated rubbish.

People are interpreting a book different ways...and telling gays they can't marry...or killing each other...etc...over an interpretation of a book.

If one believes in God/Allah...and what Christ/Muhammad said...then you should embrace your neighbor as your brother...you should rejoice in someone being in love and finding their soul mate...be they gay or not...

I myself believe in a higher power. I don't call it God...because that diminishes what it is for me. I don't subscribe to religion...because that is a shackle.

Live in peace...and embrace knowledge.

/thread

Vreki · 2012-07-11, 11:57 AM

If you will forgive the expression, both sides are bastards.
But the Israeli are our kind of bastards, and their enemies are mostly our enemies.

And by "our kind" I do not mean race or religion, but a democracy with western values.

Red Beard · 2012-07-11, 12:04 PM

The problem I see is that it's ultimately a matter of land titles, and for better or worse, that would ultimately defer to which religious text you consider.

I have a lot of people in my facebook network, and most of them have a very distorted portrayal of what's going on there. For example, a picture of Palestinians suffering violence at the hands of soldiers/IDF, without any mention of bombers or rocket attacks.

MightyMan · 2012-07-11, 12:17 PM

Originally Posted by Red Beard

The problem I see is that it's ultimately a matter of land titles, and for better or worse, that would ultimately defer to which religious text you consider.

I have a lot of people in my facebook network, and most of them have a very distorted portrayal of what's going on there. For example, a picture of Palestinians suffering violence at the hands of soldiers/IDF, without any mention of bombers or rocket attacks.

Considering the only thing the media is shows as of today is bad things, and Israel is a big god mine of bad things, the media concentrate on any kind of bad thing that may happen in Israel, usually stripping off facts to make it look more shocking and interesting.

Vreki · 2012-07-11, 12:19 PM

I remember a novel by Tom Clancy where the Palestinians got "smart" and started to use Gandhi tactics. That would be pretty devastating for Israels moral position, but I don't see it happening.

On the other hand, the settlements are preventing Israel from being considered the good guy instead of the lesser evil. I don't see what they expect to gain from this, but I heard that internal politic battles in Israel are pretty vicious too.

So status quo forever, or at least until it all ends in mushroom clouds.

Warborn · 2012-07-11, 12:47 PM

Israel is currently engaged in apartheid against the Palestinians and has left a mountain of civilians behind it in its pursuit of retaliating against Hamas or whoever. Or, hell, even in simply keeping the Palestinians repressed it often results to lethal force without any real provocation (see: the Gaza flotilla massacre). On the other hand, terrorists themselves have killed Israeli civilians via suicide bombings and rocket attacks. Not to mention the previous Arab-Israeli conflicts wherein the neighboring Arab countries made their best attempt at wiping out Israel.

But, ultimately my opinion is that Israel is more to blame than the Palestinians. Israel is doing everything they can to keep the Palestinians in a state of poverty and continues to build more and more illegal settlements beyond their previously agreed upon territorial restrictions. It is hard to see Israel as the victim in this when the United States will do essentially anything to keep Israel from being held accountable for its human rights/international law violations, and makes sure the IDF has the most potent weapons at its disposal.

As for Iran, I don't like theocracies anymore than the next guy, but considering that Iran exists on the same planet as the United States I find it perfectly reasonable that they would want to pursue nuclear weapons. When Iran's neighbors were invaded so readily and torn apart by the US and its allies, what country in their right mind wouldn't want to have nukes to ward off potential attacks?

I think, given enough time, Iran will outgrow its Ayatollahs and their repressive regimes. I don't think they are in the market for nuclear war. I would be very disappointed if Israel and Iran went to war over this issue.

MightyMan · 2012-07-11, 03:16 PM

Originally Posted by Warborn

Israel is currently engaged in apartheid against the Palestinians and has left a mountain of civilians behind it in its pursuit of retaliating against Hamas or whoever. Or, hell, even in simply keeping the Palestinians repressed it often results to lethal force without any real provocation (see: the Gaza flotilla massacre). On the other hand, terrorists themselves have killed Israeli civilians via suicide bombings and rocket attacks. Not to mention the previous Arab-Israeli conflicts wherein the neighboring Arab countries made their best attempt at wiping out Israel.

But, ultimately my opinion is that Israel is more to blame than the Palestinians. Israel is doing everything they can to keep the Palestinians in a state of poverty and continues to build more and more illegal settlements beyond their previously agreed upon territorial restrictions. It is hard to see Israel as the victim in this when the United States will do essentially anything to keep Israel from being held accountable for its human rights/international law violations, and makes sure the IDF has the most potent weapons at its disposal.

As for Iran, I don't like theocracies anymore than the next guy, but considering that Iran exists on the same planet as the United States I find it perfectly reasonable that they would want to pursue nuclear weapons. When Iran's neighbors were invaded so readily and torn apart by the US and its allies, what country in their right mind wouldn't want to have nukes to ward off potential attacks?

I think, given enough time, Iran will outgrow its Ayatollahs and their repressive regimes. I don't think they are in the market for nuclear war. I would be very disappointed if Israel and Iran went to war over this issue.

"keeping the Palestinians repressed"
Sight, You see: The media focuses only on the bad things Israel does, usually without confirming their facts.
Well lets see. Palestinians are citizens of Israel. They have all the rights that a normal Israeli citizen has. They can vote in the elections, they CAN BE elected into the government and they get full education, funded by the Israeli government.
The thing that you are talking about are Palestinians from the Gaza strip.
Why is it different? Because they are not repressed by the Israeli government, they are repressed by others.
You see, the only thing Israel can control in those territories is what is exported and imported to them. That does not mean "you get 1 bread loaf a month" it means Israel checks what is imported/exported in there in case there are any guns or rockets in there, and prevents those ONLY if there are any guns or rockets in there.
Now the Gaza strip is under the control of another body called the HAMAS.
Other parts of those territories are under the control of a body called the "Palestinian national authority".
Both are almost completely autonomous, the first one wanting to kill us all, the second funded by Israel, and does every thing possible to fart as loudly and as smelly as possible in our face.
Long story short, the repressed Palestinians are not repressed by Israel, mostly because it cannot repress them.
If yo want to know who represses them feel free to ask.

Yet again, sigh: "the Gaza flotilla massacre"
No, erase the massacre part and then you will be right.
So. The Gaza flotilla were a "a group of piece makers" who illegally crossed Israel's borders, while rejecting Israel's demand check the cargo of the ship. Lets analyse this; There was no promise the cargo of the ship held food and humanitarian supplies, it could just as well hold weapons, bombs, terrorists and babies to sacrifice for Satan (yes this is cynicism). Also, there is no need to say that illegally crossing the border, is well, illegal.
So Israel sent a squad of soldiers to hijack the ship and send it to be examined in the closest ship port, before the supplies were sent to Palestine and the "piece makers" were sent home. and hijacking is not a wrong thing, because as I stated, they were aggressively breaking international law.
At first, the squad entered the ship with basically PAINTBALL GUNS that shoot rubber bullets that are used to inflict pain, in case of one of the soldiers being attacked but cause no permanent damage in any way.
You see, the second the soldiers landed on the ship from the helicopter, they were attacked by metal poles, axes and any kind of thing you can throw or use as a melee weapon.

To save the soldiers, they have sent reinforcements to the ship, who, this time came with REAL guns guns, because now the "peace makers" were treated as full terrorists and there was no justification not to treat them like that. Notice how 9 passengers out 41 passengers died. Massacre= worth killing everyone and better yet, they were killed ONLY because they attacked the soldiers with the clear objective of harming them. Those who really were peaceful, were not harmed at all.
Long story short Israel could have done it in a better way, but saying that it was a massacre is completely wrong.

Warborn · 2012-07-11, 04:02 PM

Originally Posted by MightyMan

"keeping the Palestinians repressed"
Sight, You see: The media focuses only on the bad things Israel does, usually without confirming their facts.

How about almost straight from the source?

WikiLeaks: Israel aimed to keep Gaza economy on brink of collapse

Israel controls what goes in and out of Gaza and other Palestinian enclaves. They say the goal is to prevent weapons from being sent in, but the reality is that they want to keep the Palestinian areas "'functioning at the lowest level possible consistent with avoiding a humanitarian crisis". Meanwhile, anything the Palestinians or their sympathizers do is met with overwhelming force, up to and including the execution of civilians.

Meanwhile, who're the real victims of violence here? Is this horrible mistreatment of Palestinians and, as I said, apartheid justified because Israel is under grave threat? Well, considering the entire conflict has seen more than 5x as many Palestinian dead as Israeli, including 1620 Palestinian children killed (more than 10x as many Israeli children killed) I'm not sure Israel is the David in this story.

You can't blame this on the media. The numbers don't lie. Settlements are being built beyond agreed-upon boundaries, the outright repression of the Palestinians is admitted to, and there is a tremendous body count of dead civilians at the feet of the side with the tanks and attack helicopters. The only reason there aren't sanctions against Israel for its behaviour is because it would be political suicide for American politicians to ever suggest Israel be brought to task for its activities. So the US vetoes anything anyone ever does which is even remotely critical of the UN, and governments like my own in Canada who want nothing more than to fellate the American government for eternity follow suit and embarrass us all.