Higby on Magriders

Hamma · 2013-02-18, 05:19 PM

This has been a hot topic around here.

Hey all -

I've spent a lot of time reading threads here, tweets & reddit posts from a lot of VS players upset with the changes to Magriders - I wanted to respond to a few things and let you know what we're up to.

I came in today exclusively to dedicate some time to driving around in the Magrider and checking out how it feels compared to the Vanguard and Prowler. I tried out all the various performance slot items, went to lots of suggested locations in the world and pitted the vehicles against eachother to see where the complaints are coming from. Now, i'm not a dedicated Mag pilot, but I've got a lot of hours in a Vanguard vs. Magriders so I have a decent idea of how they play and what they need to be successful. I made a bunch of notes about some issues that I found to send to the vehicle coders / designers to look into.

- There are definitely some issues with getting hung up on small bumps / inclines that are above 40 degrees but are too small to seem like they should impact movement - we will fix this.
- strafing, and especially strafing up an incline that's not perpendicular to non-sloped forward movement affects forward velocity in some situations where it probably shouldn't - we will look into ways to improve that.
- I wasn't able to find any real areas where I could get places with a Prowler or a Vanguard that my Magrider couldn't get, but, that doesn't mean they don't exist - I just didn't find any.
- When "stalled" on a steep hill, Magburner doesn't get you over it anymore. This is intentional. We have a limit to the angle of the hill that we want armor of all types to be able to traverse. Right now it's probably a bit too constrained on Magriders, and we will probably pull it back somewhat, but, Magburner will not allow you to traverse steeper angles than normal movement will allow.

I've seen some posts about strafing speed being nerfed so now it's harder to dodge incoming fire. We didn't nerf strafing speed on the default or any performance chassis, although there may issues perceived to have to do with strafing speed while moving forward that actually have to do with new code which arrests movement on steep slopes (again, something we will look into smoothing out, especially the deceleration when you initially strafe while moving forward). The biggest impact here is probably the enemy MBT velocity changes (especially in AP rounds) that make it harder to dodge incoming fire, not your own maneuverability.

The vision for the Magrider has always been to have it be the most maneuverable MBT. It's advantages come from it's agility, mitigating damage by avoidance, and literally running circles around the other MBTs in combat. However, that does not mean that they're designed to traverse any terrain in the game, ignoring roads and and instead going over mountains or avoiding bridge chokes and instead climbing up cliffs to short-circuit continental flow. They need to be able to smoothly traverse uneven / rough terrain and out maneuver other MBTs in armor conflicts but still obey the basic terrain 'boundaries' that are present in the game. That's where we think Magriders should be, and they're not there right now. There are definitely some tweaks we need to work on to make sure that they get there.

As always, thanks for the feedback on these issues, it helps a lot!

http://forums.station.sony.com/ps2/i...ability.95479/

BlaxicanX · 2013-02-18, 05:23 PM

It's hard to hate the guy when you read his posts. He seems so reasonable.

Can't comment much on the Magrider. From an NC/TR perspective, I've never had problems fighting Mags that I haven't had fighting the other tanks. So.

bpostal · 2013-02-19, 09:14 AM

Originally Posted by BlaxicanX

It's hard to hate the guy when you read his posts. He seems so reasonable.

Can't comment much on the Magrider. From an NC/TR perspective, I've never had problems fighting Mags that I haven't had fighting the other tanks. So.

I know! I can't think of a lower level of hell than having to play as VS. On the day off no less.
Also, idk about you but I'm loving the new AP lockdown mode

Assist · 2013-02-18, 05:27 PM

We'll see when changes are made. Tired of commenting on this only have mud slung at me even though, as it turns out, I've been right that the movement still isn't fixed. What his post should of said is that they've learned that balancing shouldn't include buffs to one side and nerfs to another in the same patch. I don't think they've learned that yet though, maybe next balance cycle.

Glad that he put in the effort to look at it, but acknowledging there's a problem is not fixing the problem as many developers have taught me.

Pella · 2013-02-18, 05:33 PM

Amen.

DirtyBird · 2013-02-18, 05:37 PM

lol Bear, spot on.

Calisai · 2013-02-18, 06:03 PM

- When "stalled" on a steep hill, Magburner doesn't get you over it anymore. This is intentional. We have a limit to the angle of the hill that we want armor of all types to be able to traverse. Right now it's probably a bit too constrained on Magriders, and we will probably pull it back somewhat, but, Magburner will not allow you to traverse steeper angles than normal movement will allow.

I'm fine with not letting burner get you up those hills... but for gods sake... give us a warning or not let it burn the fuel. Here I am... trying to maneuver around and dodge... to try and burst away and suddenly i'm 5 feet from where I was... and can't use the burner to go a different way because it wiped my fuel uselessly.

Imagine having the shield randomly engage yet not mitigate any damage... or lockdown to engage but not increase your reload speed... all because you were on a 40 degree hill instead of a 35 degree hill.

I understand the limiting of the skill... but at least help us know when it will work and not beyond trial and error.

Oh, and buffing at the same time as nerfing... made the effect seem 4x as bad. If they had phased it in, even a week in between or so, it wouldn't have been as bad. VS has lost a lot of population (albeit bad players) over this...

I've already adapted to the new Mag... not a big deal... but the perception that it's useless now has hurt the populations. Where we were 33%, we are now consistently 24-28%... (maybe some of that has to do with warpgates...)

Either way... the changes are really not that hard to get used to.

Thunderhawk · 2013-02-18, 06:18 PM

Whilst this thread is about Magriders, I still see people commenting on ESFs.... let me just say my opinion on the matter:-

1. Magriders are "ok", they have their issues as Higby stated in his observations, but the problem is that the Prowler is now just better. The advantage - be it overpowered or not - made it so people played it and now with all the changes that have happened people have stopped logging in disgruntled by it all.

If he came into work to test it out, how about him pull those stats he showed us prior to the NERFs about Tank vs Tank fights since the GU2 and show us what they are now. I'd be curious to see what the shift is like. It was used as proof prior to the nerf so Id like to see the "after" values.

2. Are the guys banging on about the Scythe being "super manouverable" actually flown a Scythe?

Pick up a Stock Mossie with no Performance Attachments and fly it.
Pick up a Stock Scythe with no Performance Attachments and fly it.

Tell me which one is more maneuverable, honestly, without bullshit faction loyalty crap being spouted around.

Now look at the Chain guns, The Mossies M18 Rotary and get hit by it (in your Scythe), then try and do the same thing with the Hailstrom.

---------

I'd quite happily accept something as overpowered, but dont come on here and tell me after I've been playing since first wave of Tech test that I have no clue about the differences between ESFs and I should L2P.

Bear · 2013-02-18, 05:30 PM

Is there a faction that cries more than the Vanu? Seriously, the minute they can't climb up and down every sixty degree slope their world ends? No way to cling to a mountainside and spam a base, the the games unplayable? When they can't simply mag spam every base that have absolutely no tactical alternative? They've got a laser for a main gun, no range considerations and the ability to strafe an they still can't win a 1 v 1 tank battle?

They've got the most accurate weapons in the game and an ESF that's insanely maneuverable but that's not enough. They've actually cried so much they got the lead developer to spend an afternoon in their tank because they just can't compete.

I'll tell ya what, I'll trade you the Prowler and the Carv for the Mag and the Orion any day of the week. Cry to Higby about that.

I'm convinced the VS won't be happy unless the Mag can go everywhere and be virtually unhittable by the other two factions.

Hell, just make it fly. Maybe that will shut them up.

Assist · 2013-02-18, 05:48 PM

Originally Posted by Bear

They've got the most accurate weapons in the game and an ESF that's insanely maneuverable but that's not enough. They've actually cried so much they got the lead developer to spend an afternoon in their tank because they just can't compete.

Yes, all the VS are just horrible players. That makes a lot more sense than there actually being a problem.

Assist · 2013-02-18, 06:09 PM

Originally Posted by Bear

Is there a faction that cries more than the Vanu? Seriously, the minute they can't climb up and down every sixty degree slope their world ends? No way to cling to a mountainside and spam a base, the the games unplayable? When they can't simply mag spam every base that have absolutely no tactical alternative? They've got a laser for a main gun, no range considerations and the ability to strafe an they still can't win a 1 v 1 tank battle?

Yes, the VS are just a bunch of whiners. We see something and suddenly we cry. No way to cling to a mountainside? It amazes me how ignorant some of you are here. Laser for a main gun? I assume you meant he Saron, our secondary gun? No range considerations? What's different for MBT's for range ? Oh, nothing, at all - Our main gun has bullet drop, take two seconds to learn something about the game before slinging shit on the forums. You're right, our laser has no bullet drop. The ability to strafe was clearly laid out for you by Higby in the post above, an NC player. Strafing is irrelevant without the time to react. Maybe if you read his post or any of the posts by individuals here you'd know that strafing is irrelevant in fights considering how inconsistent it is in different terrain. As far as winning in a 1v1 fight I'm soooooooooo tired of this being used. Don't you people even play in tanks that bitch and moan about the Magrider? If you lose to a Magrider 1v1 EVER, even pre-patch, you're probably just a horrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr ible player. To the point that you should stop posting and go ride the coattails of the BRIT zerg.

Originally Posted by Bear

They've got the most accurate weapons in the game and an ESF that's insanely maneuverable but that's not enough. They've actually cried so much they got the lead developer to spend an afternoon in their tank because they just can't compete.

Most. Accurate. Weapons. You are right, we are the most accurate infantry guns in the game. We don't have bullet drop on our guns. It's funny, because you can actually aim your gun to achieve the same hit markers as my VS at 100m. I can't hit anywhere near as hard as your TR gun at 100m. We both have the same bullet spread. So while you can compensate for the bullet drop, I have no way to compensate for the damage loss at range. But we'll just ignore that so you can go on your mud slinging spree full of bullshit.

You really think that the Scythe is better than the Mossie? Unbelievable the shit that comes from some players on Waterson. Haven't you learned anything watching players? They're close to balanced, but you think that the Scythe is BETTER than the Mossie? Wow. IR - I'll remember that, I may be able to play in the air against that outfit.

Originally Posted by Bear

I'll tell ya what, I'll trade you the Prowler and the Carv for the Mag and the Orion any day of the week. Cry to Higby about that.

Uh, ok? Done?

Originally Posted by Bear

I'm convinced the VS won't be happy unless the Mag can go everywhere and be virtually unhittable by the other two factions.

Hell, just make it fly. Maybe that will shut them up.

I wish some TR, specifically some on Waterson, would shut up. Their input is reflective of their horrendous play day in and day out on a server they severely dominate in population. Maybe if they learned to play the game, or learned their opponents strengths, their opinions would be worth a shit rather than being completely worthless members of a giant zerg.

Xaine · 2013-02-18, 08:04 PM

Originally Posted by Bear

Is there a faction that cries more than the Vanu? Seriously, the minute they can't climb up and down every sixty degree slope their world ends? No way to cling to a mountainside and spam a base, the the games unplayable? When they can't simply mag spam every base that have absolutely no tactical alternative? They've got a laser for a main gun, no range considerations and the ability to strafe an they still can't win a 1 v 1 tank battle?

They've got the most accurate weapons in the game and an ESF that's insanely maneuverable but that's not enough. They've actually cried so much they got the lead developer to spend an afternoon in their tank because they just can't compete.

I'll tell ya what, I'll trade you the Prowler and the Carv for the Mag and the Orion any day of the week. Cry to Higby about that.

I'm convinced the VS won't be happy unless the Mag can go everywhere and be virtually unhittable by the other two factions.

Hell, just make it fly. Maybe that will shut them up.

Seeing as you just attacked every VS player for no reason at all, i'll return the favour.

Your K/D ratio makes everything you say regarding game mechanics completely moot.

Good day, Sir.

Rothnang · 2013-02-18, 08:10 PM

Originally Posted by Mordelicius

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrR4drWaDvs

Now, can a Vanguard or Prowler do any of that pre-GU2 or post-GU2?

This video shows EXACTLY what people are talking about when they say the Magriders dominance was mostly up to people playing stupidly.

Every single tank he kills, no attempts to angle their armor toward him, just sitting their with their turret turned taking it in the side and back.

That video doesn't in any way showcase an overpowered magrider, it showcases idiotic opponents.

Ghoest9 · 2013-02-18, 09:56 PM

What Higby says is quite reasonable.

IMO most of the Vanus whining about the Mag are people used to being who were used to being over powered and dont realize it.
Sort of like any NC who says the MAXes are balanced - the only difference is the Mag is used was more than any MAX.

maradine · 2013-02-18, 10:17 PM

What is it about Magrider threads? Brings the most amazing arguments out of the woodwork.