My thoughs on ZOE

Escroteitor · 2013-10-10, 06:13 AM

I think that the ZOE don't have enough drawbacks compared to other maxes special abilities.

The 20% reduction in armor change their 80% bullet damage reduction to a 60% damage reduction. That's fine, a powerful drawback.

In a normal way a max need 5 times more bullet to drop his health than a normal foot soldier (80% reduction). With ZOE a soldier need 2,5 times more bullets to drop a ZOE max.

The problem comes when this armor reduction doesn't affects rockets direct hits. A ZOE takes the exactly same damage from a rocket on both states, because a MAX doesn't have armor against direct hits.

And this is a not problem because rockets shouldn't one-shot maxes (because with a 20% increase in damage received the stock rocket launcher can overkill a MAX) 1700*1,2= 2040. The problems comes with the dodging ability the ZOE has.

That dodging ability prevents a death from decimators (2000 health per hit= one-shot maxes), while others maxes can't dodge the rocket (or have a lot of problems doing it) the ZOE can.

And this itself isn't a problem. The problem is combination of all of the above. Ironically the ZOE negates it owns drawbacks.

The ZOE actually can increase the survivability of a MAX, dodging make it hard to infantry to shoot them, so less bullets hits the MAX, therefor it nearly negates it drawback.

Also it can dodge rockets more easily, increasing it survivability.

Eventually we understand that the ZOE drawbacks are skill-based. A player can negate them by it owns skills. While other maxes can't. You can't prevent been anchored, you can't prevent not shooting with aegis up, but you can prevent the increased damage received by dodging.

The ZOE then has an increase of killing potential, and survivability. While the other maxes choose between one of the two. The zoe doesn't.

So my conclussion is that increasing their damage received is not actually a good design for the ZOE. It needs a non-controllable drawback.

PredatorFour · 2013-10-10, 07:32 AM

From useage i'd say ZOE maxes can get hit by deci's. It happens to me, it happens to many others. Infact it happened twice to me last night.

You gotta remember that even with full kinetic, a ZOE takes a beating just by being hit with a carbine say. Even though they dish out pain, they are vulnerable. A slight beating turns into a heavy beating with ZOE turned on.

If i were to balance the empires maxes in their current states i would do the following (from a ZOE users point of view max on max);

NC = Make the shield GO ROUND THE SIDES of the max, only leaving the back exposed. There's been times i have literally just jumped round a shield max in my ZOE and hit it on it's side.

TR = Increase the speed of the clamping/de-clamping process, make it more lethal CQ and less vulnerable.

VS = A speed reduction. Make it not strafe as fast/or faster than a normal soldier. ( a part of me hates me for saying this )

KesTro · 2013-10-10, 08:08 AM

Originally Posted by PredatorFour

NC = Make the shield GO ROUND THE SIDES of the max, only leaving the back exposed. There's been times i have literally just jumped round a shield max in my ZOE and hit it on it's side.

TR = Increase the speed of the clamping/de-clamping process, make it more lethal CQ and less vulnerable.

VS = A speed reduction. Make it not strafe as fast/or faster than a normal soldier. ( a part of me hates me for saying this )

But so many others love you for it.

Escroteitor · 2013-10-10, 08:33 AM

Originally Posted by PredatorFour

From useage i'd say ZOE maxes can get hit by deci's. It happens to me, it happens to many others. Infact it happened twice to me last night.

You gotta remember that even with full kinetic, a ZOE takes a beating just by being hit with a carbine say. Even though they dish out pain, they are vulnerable. A slight beating turns into a heavy beating with ZOE turned on.

If i were to balance the empires maxes in their current states i would do the following (from a ZOE users point of view max on max);

NC = Make the shield GO ROUND THE SIDES of the max, only leaving the back exposed. There's been times i have literally just jumped round a shield max in my ZOE and hit it on it's side.

TR = Increase the speed of the clamping/de-clamping process, make it more lethal CQ and less vulnerable.

VS = A speed reduction. Make it not strafe as fast/or faster than a normal soldier. ( a part of me hates me for saying this )

I agree with you completely. The anchor time of the TR max plus the camera shaking while deploying is painful as hell

just something I want to point out. I know the bullets hits hard to a ZOE max (the normal damage is doubled), and I'm ok with that, but chasing a fast moving target can make you miss a bunch of bullets, that's what I was saying.

bpostal · 2013-10-10, 06:30 PM

Originally Posted by Escroteitor

...chasing a fast moving target can make you miss a bunch of bullets...

You can solve that by being TR. Or by being a good NC I suppose, either way.

Originally Posted by EVILPIG

...

TR - Get rid of lockdown and go with Overdrive. Increase RoF in a short burst that burns out and cannot be stopped.

...

I'd back the NC "we're going up the stairs over your corpses now, ty" shields if we could swap out lockdown. I was really wrong when I was hoping for lockdown to be awesome as most anything other than a burster. Suppose I also can't say no to making the VS more maneuverable all around seeing as that seems to be their faction bennie anyway. On principle I can't speak against any potential nerf towards the VS (or NC) so I'm up for taking their damage effects away as well.

On the whole though, I have noticed that AV grenades (coupled with grenade bandolier) can usually fuck up a ZOE MAX fairly well. Plus if I can initiate combat and control (or at least affect) where the ZOE runs to I can get it to run dick first into a deci or a well prepared C4.
Of course you have to be quick about it because unless you're LA you can't really outrun a ZOE.

Mastachief · 2013-10-10, 08:56 AM

Originally Posted by PredatorFour

From useage i'd say ZOE maxes can get hit by deci's. It happens to me, it happens to many others. Infact it happened twice to me last night.

You gotta remember that even with full kinetic, a ZOE takes a beating just by being hit with a carbine say. Even though they dish out pain, they are vulnerable. A slight beating turns into a heavy beating with ZOE turned on.

If i were to balance the empires maxes in their current states i would do the following (from a ZOE users point of view max on max);

NC = Make the shield GO ROUND THE SIDES of the max, only leaving the back exposed. There's been times i have literally just jumped round a shield max in my ZOE and hit it on it's side.

TR = Increase the speed of the clamping/de-clamping process, make it more lethal CQ and less vulnerable.

VS = A speed reduction. Make it not strafe as fast/or faster than a normal soldier. ( a part of me hates me for saying this )

Perfect.

typhaon · 2013-10-10, 12:37 PM

Except...

...it's quite a bit harder to shoot a ZOE vs. a TR/NC MAX... so, much of the ZOE penalty is mitigated by the speed boost... and, at extreme ranges, the speed boost can actually makes the ZOE more survivable than a non-ZOE MAX.

Sardus · 2013-10-10, 03:28 PM

The strafing speed is the issue for a lot of reasons, and needs to be turned down.

The other issue is that ZOE can leave the ability on indefinitely and it can move faster than a normal soldier can sprint, while still being able to fire.

Because they can strafe, chase you, kill more quickly than any other max, and then run away, they are extremely difficult to counter.

The ZOE is only vulnerable when severely outnumbered or when they overextend themselves. Otherwise you have to chase them down, which normally gets you killed. The best normal counter is another max, and that max has to be extremely aggressive to chase that ZOE down.

EVILPIG · 2013-10-10, 06:23 PM

The Zoe's DPS coupled with it's deep clips really make the ZOE strong. What makes the ZOE over the top is it's speed and lack of activation time and it's ability to run it's power indefinitely. With full ZOE, a VS MAX moves at 90% of infantry Sprint speed. You cannot escape it. You cannot get out of it's range and it has enough ammo to plow through many, many targets per clip. When reloading, you can simply run away or instantly turn off ZOE and reactivate when done. It is the single most broken unit in the game.

I'd balance MAX abilities as such:

VS ZOE - take away DPS increase and the damage vulnerability. Makes VS MAXes the most maneuverable. ZOE is full time speed boost.

TR - Get rid of lockdown and go with Overdirve. Increase RoF in a short burst that burns out and cannot be stopped.

NC - Make the shield a bubble and allow NC MAXes to shoot through it. Adjust the shield's absorption to match balance. Not being able to shoot, a pure defense, is stupid. Who cares if you're not taking damage if you're not shooting? When the shield drops, you're still starting at an even fight.

Also, NC MAXes are LOUD when they walk, while VS MAXes tip-toe and can actually sneak up on folks.

NUKABAZOOKA · 2013-10-11, 04:34 AM

Originally Posted by EVILPIG

VS ZOE - take away RoF increase and the damage vulnerability. Makes VS MAXes the most maneuverable. ZOE is full time speed boost.

Please educate yourself.
It is a damage percent increase based upon rank of ZOE, not rate of fire.

Mastachief · 2013-10-11, 05:09 AM

My bitching and moaning is based off using my level5 zoe. It is basically a scattermax with massive range, huge clip, no armour loss (toggle that shit on and off) and it moves faster than any infantry. I am so much more effective in a zoe than i ever am in a scat max.

Shamrock · 2013-10-11, 09:52 AM

You know I prefer being a more tanky bullet soak MAX that breaches and allows the softies to run up behind me. But the moaning in this thread has convinced me to give ZoE another try, cheers.

I have never been able to pull off a 70+ kill streak with a VS or a TR MAX, but I can do this with ease in a Scat MAX, the Scat is far from useless I always enjoy playing it and saying it is awful or sub par is just unbelievable.

PS: anyone that cant hit a 7ft tall MAX has terribad aim.

Taramafor · 2013-10-11, 04:19 PM

Personally I use C4 to kill my maxes. You'd be surprised how often you can find one with its back turned and just leave one at it's feet. Or luring one around a corner. Once I get deci, I'll be using that too. And this is as a heavy, not a LA.

The strafing with the ZOE's is a bit much though as they basically become relentless killing machines that can move quickly, still gun and have a high armor value (high in terms of other infantry, not other MAXES). Perhaps have some sort of "boost" instead, where it moves quickly in one direction a fair distance and having it cool down for 5 seconds or so before using it again.