Uber-Flail

[keaoi]

It needs a HUGE nerf. The thing is completely unbalanced. Everything I list, I saw with my own eyes.

It can...

- Camp air towers VERY effectively.
- Deploy outside a doorway, greeting players with a insta-kill suprise.
- Sit on a hill (sloping down), and spam a base.
- (This one REALLY F'ING PISSED ME OFF) Fire from JUST outside a warpgate, then after taking damage simply go back in and repair. This wouldnt be a problem if the damn thing wasnt just as strong as a GAL.

There are several actions I feel would be most appropriate.

- Stop the ability to repair ANYTHING within the SOI of a warpgate.
- Lower the armor of the Flail to something more like a Lightning (or less).
- Disable its ability to deploy within a enemy SOI.
- Force its deployment location to have the same requirements and landing an aircraft (VERY flat).
- Drasticly slow its aim rate while increasing its accuracy slightly. Artillery is precision equipment, and as such should require precision (slow) aiming.

This would the put the Flail back where it belongs. Which is anywhere but where it is now. The Front Lines.

[Aen]

I agree that it is overpowered. Mostly in the fact that the armor on the thing is crazy strong. A friend and I were scouting in our reavers and spotted one sitting outside the NC WG on Hossin. So we fly all the way around to take full advantage of its blind spot. My friend takes point and unloads a full load of reaver rockets on it then trys to blast off, nailed. So while he was distracted I followed and unloaded my full clip on it and thrusted off, only to notice it had around 60% armor left (Adv. Targeting)!! Thats hella crazy. Not too mention that it can turn faster than it should as well. As Keaoi said, its a precision weapon, and right now its a doom cannon from hell.

[Flammey]

A few things you should know before you judge it. One, it is slow to aim, moving about as fast as a turret. Two, it takes a good 5 seconds to deploy, or undeploy. Three, it can not fire undeployed, so on the move, it is extremely vulnerable to vehicles that can move as fast as it can, or faster. Four, and the most important, everyone can use it, so there is no one side that is stronger than the other. and five, it is Artillery. It is supposed to be as strong as it is. You obviously have not been locked down in an area by a good tank driver/gunner. I imagine, if you had been, and had been many times, you'd be screaming nerf about it. There are two things you can do to destroy a Flail easy. One, get close enough to it, and two, get above it's aim. Simple. I was easily destroyed outside a tower by two guys using Decimators. I was not killed, but they effectively shut me down. The Flail has the same armor as a Liberator. How come your not screaming Nerf to the Lib????? A good Liberator pilot/bomber can fuck you up royally, and send you home to momma, crying. So why are you not screaming Nerf the Lib??
Obviously, you've never used a Flail.

[NNY]

Originally Posted by Flammey

One, get close enough to it, and two, get above it's aim. Simple.

damn i get right under these things and i cant even set boomers WTF is up with that?

[Cider_Ownz]

I jsut think it should feel more like an artilery.

Lower armor, slower ROF......... stuff like that.

It shouldn't really be able to defend itself against attacks, but it should be able to own everything from afar.

[sutserikeru]

Originally Posted by Cider_Ownz

I jsut think it should feel more like an artilery.

Lower armor, slower ROF......... stuff like that.

It shouldn't really be able to defend itself against attacks, but it should be able to own everything from afar.

(yes i know this is from a while back, but i need to prove my point ;p)
1. Artillery cannons are staionary when firing, thus they need the armor to survive whil deployed. get it? good. moving on.
2. the ROF is fine, it fires a round every 5 seconds, if you can move your ass out of there in five seconds, go play another game
3. if you were in the real military like i was for 10 years, youd know how artillery works. (if anything the ROF needs to be increased)
4. Why shouldnt it be able to defend itself? isnt that kind of defeating the purpose of a war vech? yes.
5. There should be a side gunner with a sycthe like the SB, only it can only be deployed when the flail is
6. ITS ARTILLERY, ITS SUPPOSED TO BE STRONG. Weak Artillery means no support. The Reavers cant even take 3 Mag Rail Rounds, so stfu
7. Artillery is supposed be support, not precision you n00b, why do u think it has such massive splash damage? itd be a super long range sniper rifle if it was supposed to be precise...
8. just shut up, you have no idea wtf youre talking about.

[BadAsh]

Originally Posted by sutserikeru

1. Artillery cannons are staionary when firing, thus they need the armor to survive whil deployed. get it? good. moving on.
2. the ROF is fine, it fires a round every 5 seconds, if you can move your ass out of there in five seconds, go play another game
3. if you were in the real military like i was for 10 years, youd know how artillery works. (if anything the ROF needs to be increased)
4. Why shouldnt it be able to defend itself? isnt that kind of defeating the purpose of a war vech? yes.
5. There should be a side gunner with a sycthe like the SB, only it can only be deployed when the flail is
6. ITS ARTILLERY, ITS SUPPOSED TO BE STRONG. Weak Artillery means no support. The Reavers cant even take 3 Mag Rail Rounds, so stfu
7. Artillery is supposed be support, not precision you n00b, why do u think it has such massive splash damage? itd be a super long range sniper rifle if it was supposed to be precise...
8. just shut up, you have no idea wtf youre talking about.

Ok some counter points:

1. Armor should not protect the Flail. Distance from the enemy and intelligent strategic placement is its protection. Get it? Good. Moving on! (P.S. Sorry I could not resist )
2. Ok so in point 2 you admit the raw over power of the Flail by insinuating that the only way to survive a Flail is to run for your life. Further you insult those who try in vein to fight the Flail by inviting them to go play another game if they don�t know to run and run fast. Silly rabbits did not know to run from the Uber-Flail.
3. If you were in the real military you would know that real artillery has no armor (crews are exposed � oh and another point� it takes a CREW to man artillery not an army of one). Second, um, what artillery takes out aircraft? Third, what artillery piece drives up to enemy lines under direct fire, deploys, and then kills anyone not smart enough to RUN?
4. What artillery guns defend themselves? None, they require a supporting army in which every unit does it�s job.
5. Side gunner? LOL. Why not just shrink the Flail to MAX size so it can enter buildings, give it wings to fly, and allow it to fire while moving/flying. Then allow the driver to effect repairs and hack facilities from within the unit. I mean if you want to be completely ridicules about it, why stop at a side gunner?
6. No you STFU! Nah nah nah nee boo boo (keeping the argument level the same)
7. �Artillery is supposed to be support� BINGO, we have a winner. That�s exactly why is should have little to no armor, be unable to hit aircraft, and need spotter to fire at all. Alone it should be a sitting duck, as part of a TEAM it could, if used correctly, the tool that turns the tide of a battle as a SUPPORT unit, NOT a front line show stopper.
8. You are talking to a mirror again aren�t you? My advice: Listen to the man in the mirror.


BadAsh

[WritheNC]

I don't have a problem with flails. I just drive full speed at them with a basilisk, stop while touching them, and then just hold down the fire button while they spend 10 seconds trying to see if they can hit me, then 5 seconds undeploying to run away. Its hilarious.

[MiniOrca]

Flails are overpowered in the sense their armor far exceeds what it should be. I was in the core where Falils run rampant and decided to "snipe" one with me 3 decimators. Ok well 7 of the shots hit and the thing was still turning around looking at what hit it. Not showing any signs of panic that it was getting hit by the strongest AV weapon in the game. I have 2 shots left in my last decimator and theres no way im gonna waste it. I just take out my chaingun and head inside.

Now listen to this.

As I was leaving the core, that same flail, which was almost at the other side of the cannon happened to see me. He takes a dumbshot into the air. The thing soars accross the whole canyon and plop, right on me as i was just about to go onto the blue string teleporter thing.

Ok ill stop now.

[MacavitySWE]

Err, artillery is supposed to be heavily armored... think about it: You have a big weapon that can rip thru most things at a range. Would you want to have the armor of a lightning?

Scenario: You deploy inside your base, fire a shot, a reaver sees you, flies off into your direction and kills you with one load of rockets before you've had the chance to say "uh oh"

Not likely, the flail is as Flammey said: Slow, cant fire undeployed and has a really slow rate of fire

Plus, everybody can use them, so there is no empire specific advantage.

[Gigabein]

We're not arguing for extreme nerfs here. We're arguing reasonable armor vs. unreasonable. Real artillery doesn't need to be armored better than tanks, because when used properly it sits way back in relative safety.

And just because an item is common pool doesn't automatically mean it's balanced. That's a common misconception I've noticed PS players sometimes have.

In the real military, I dont even think artillery can go under a 60 degree incline, and for good reason. You tilt that cannon down too far and it will just rip the support beams out from under it.

This is RIGHT on. If you use a little logic, ask yourself, "Why does the flail have to deploy?" That big old gun must have some kick to it. Make a lower limit to how far down the gun can angle relative to the base mount.

[Doppler]

[QUOTE=MacavitySWE]Err, artillery is supposed to be heavily armored... think about it: You have a big weapon that can rip thru most things at a range. Would you want to have the armor of a lightning?

[QUOTE]

Err what the fuck makes you think artillery is sposed to be heavily armored. Artillery is a big fucking cannon, its defense is distance. One shot from a tank will either destroy artillery or mess up its precision guidance so bad its more or less worthless untill it get ssome serious downtime. I've only played with them briefly, their killing power and the distance doesnt bother me, but i really dont think they should have any more armor then say an enforcer. They should stomp the living hell out of stuff from distances or stuff they get the drop on, not be slugging it out with tanks.

[Veteran]

The Flail's shell should impact harmlessly until it has travelled for 300 meters, at which point any impact would be full detonation.

The idea of an artillery piece being used as an assault vehicle is most assuredly outside the devs' conception of this vehicle.

[Holgarth]

What anoys me about the flail is that it can kill you while you are under ground in a base or tower.

My squad was hold up in the last TR tower on Amerish and we were holding the NC off untill a flail parked itself and started shooting the back wall of the tower near the ground. It kept killing every one of us as we came out of the spawn tubes and at the equipment terminals and these were one shot kills...

It also shot the wall behind the tower CC killing the 3 max's in one shot. this is also happened while in a base. We added it up and that flail made about 30 kills at that tower, while only about 2-3 from other NC kills.

Cover should give some protection from the flail, let alone being underground.
I agree that there should be a minamin fire distance that the flail can not fire at or do damage, this is a long range weapon not an assault weapon.

Not deploying in an enemy soi sounds good as well.

[BDMJ]

Regarding flails and AA. It is really all about the gunner. I can't seem to get good long distance shelling going, but if an nme aircraft is within my firing arc you can kiss it goodbye (just ask aen ). One of my outfit mates is the exact opposite. He never seems to have his distance shots interrupted by mountains etc and gets tons of kills with them, but a skeeter is a deadly threat to his flail.

I personally think that the arc should be raised slightly, so that the flail has less defense against tanks at close range. With the difficulty typically associated with obtaining one, I think the armor is fine.