Griefing without grief points.

NapalmEnima · 2003-02-13, 01:07 PM

Okay, I was posting on the official boards a minute ago, and I had a little nightmare.

TK's will want to be in your squad.

Once in, they can wait until the worst possible moment, then betray you in the worst possible way. Destroying key squad vehicles, most likely.

So they run amok, TK a vehicle or two, a person or two. The command acts fast (he was in the middle of a fire-fight and couldn't react instantly) and punts the TK out of the squad.

So the TK stops killing squad mates. He might take a pot-shot or two at people, but not aiming FOR them... just NEAR them. The ex-squadmate kills the TK, getting grief points.

So, who's done all the damage, and who's got the grief to show for it?

Sucks, eh?

Solution: Track squad-kicks. If someone has repeatedly been kicked out of squads, I want to know about it, so I don't let them into MINE.

That would require two different methods for squad removal: "Drop-kick your sorry butt" and "catch ya next time". So when you want to violently eject a TK, it's logged (or at least loggable) differently than when the commander wants to form a new squad.

This would require a certain amount of commander knowledge, and could itself be abused... but only once. If you've "punted" me for no reason, I'm NOT getting back in your squad again.

Thoughts?

Tobias · 2003-02-13, 01:10 PM

I think that instead of no grief points inside a squad a squad should have a grief point dampener, like you accidentally cap all your squad mates, that would be allot of grief points but the dampener abosorbs it, but if you do it again (because your evil and they did not give you the boot) then you get the grief's.

Kyonye · 2003-02-13, 01:13 PM

well hopefully, if they notice that you are killing way too many of your own empire, they will boot you. thats what will probably happen. i would say, the only way to get rid of a TKer's ability is to take off friendly fire but then it wouldn't be as realistic (i.e. a bomb going off in a room with a few allies and it doesn't kill you). the point is that to be able to play really well, you'll have to be able to understand how not to accidentally kill your own teammates. makes the game more challenging.

mistled · 2003-02-13, 01:14 PM

It'd be an interesting stat to track, but what if you just don't get along with the guy in charge and he decides to kick you just to make you look bad later??

Besides, if the guy has already screwed the mission, we don't kick him instantly. My boys just treat him as an enemy and blow his head off everytime they see him until he quits. The situation is still handled and my squad doesn't feel like the guy got away with anything.

Oh yeah, and grief points reset every day if I remember correctly. Each member of the squad could go kill him once and it wouldn't hurt them much. And if it's a player you see often, you could kill him once everyday.

Tobias · 2003-02-13, 01:16 PM

Sounds like a plan.

mistled · 2003-02-13, 01:18 PM

Originally posted by Tobias
I think that instead of no grief points inside a squad a squad should have a grief point dampener, like you accidentally cap all your squad mates, that would be allot of grief points but the dampener abosorbs it, but if you do it again (because your evil and they did not give you the boot) then you get the grief's.

NNNOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Nav and I shoot eachother outside of combat situations entirely too much to get grief points for doing it. You know, like when you're on teamspeak or something and the other guy starts talking smack about how he can kill you with his eyes closed, so you just have to shoot him.

NapalmEnima · 2003-02-13, 01:44 PM

Another solution:

Squad grief cap. Set things up so that in-squad grief can't possibly take you past level X. I'd pick level 2 (big nasty warning level).

That way, if you come across someone who's stats show that they've been at level 2 grief almost constantly, you'll know there's a good chance that they're an in-squad TK.

AND, if someone is maxed out on in-squad grief, and they SO MUCH AS NICK someone outside your squad, they get locked. And I'm okay with that. Be careful, ya ijit.

I'd also like to see some kind of flag that says "THIS PERSON HAS HIT THEIR GRIEF CAP" on their stat page. A warning to their commander would be good too.

NapalmEnima · 2003-02-13, 01:48 PM

Originally posted by {BOHICA}mistled
It'd be an interesting stat to track, but what if you just don't get along with the guy in charge and he decides to kick you just to make you look bad later??

Then you end up with 1 'punt'. A small number isn't going to be a big deal... a career squad-TKer will rack up a much larger number.

Significant difference.

Plus, you never join that guy's squad again, so he can't punt you any more. Problem solved.

mistled · 2003-02-13, 02:11 PM

I see it the same way with the tker as you do with the commander who just punts people he doesn't like. If the commander punts you for no good reason, don't join his squad. If a guy starts tk'ing, kick him out and don't let him back in. Either way, you aren't helped in the future, from either bad commanders or tkers. They can't track everything. And I don't want to have to read an eight page report of stats for all the possible screw ups a guy can have.

txMaddog · 2003-02-13, 02:45 PM

Does the stat tracker track kills by Empire?? If it does then TK'ers should stand out (ie high number of his Empire kills).

Anarion · 2003-02-13, 02:52 PM

If you've got a squad of 5 or 10 (tkers will probably NOT show their faces in the middle of platoons), once multiple squad mates go down to their own guy, your squad turns on him..

If you witness the tker in action it should be easy to recognize it for what it is (i.e. not an erring shot in the middle of a big fight).
Otherwise you give him the benefit of the doubt or ask the deceased how they died before you decide to kick him..

If he's still hostile, he's outnumbered 3:1, 4:1, 5:1, etc etc.. Which means he's toast, with no grief points to you. Then kicked out of the squad immediately, bringing grief to him if he tks you again..

I'm sure there will be an online resource for something like this at some time.. Maybe some way for commanders to relay the players who are actively trying to tk within squads or who are simply big abusers of the system. Like a "crap player roster" or something.. A screenshot or two for proof would be enough no doubt..

All in all the PS team seems to have a great idea going on with grief points, and I think its gonna change how other games deal with it as well.. You'll probably see a big decline in tking in this game over any other you've played online before IMO..

tking will at any rate become the most inefficient way of knocking off your teammates or getting your kicks in PS..

Lexington_Steele · 2003-02-13, 03:04 PM

Originally posted by NapalmEnima

Solution: Track squad-kicks. If someone has repeatedly been kicked out of squads, I want to know about it, so I don't let them into MINE.

This creates a whole new type of griefing. There is the impersonate a commander and booting all your squad members griefing.

TerraxNovae · 2003-02-13, 03:23 PM

Frankly I think the best counter to griefing is reputation and higher level characters. If your character is >BR5 you will start to develop a rep if you TK repeatedly.

Since you can get to BR5 with the VR training, a TK isn't going to waste time getting rid of his rep by making a new character and then running through all the VR training.

Personally I will tend to keep a eye on anyone BR5 or less, and not be very tolerant of any "mistakes". Basicallly one strike and your out.

Arshune · 2003-02-13, 03:30 PM

I think that TKing, hax0ring and all that jazz will be pretty hard to come by in PS. Most people who TK won't want to pay a monthly fee to play a game. Also, people who TK and cheat in FPS games only do so because they typically don't get punished. The very presence of the grief system itself will probably end up being a pretty good deterrent to such monkeyshines. We'll all probably see a jerkoff or two, but if you're going to get your panties in a bunch about 3 or 4 errant morons in a crowd of thousands you probably shouldn't even be operating an internet-ready PC.

NapalmEnima · 2003-02-13, 03:31 PM

Not eight pages, just a few stats:

Worst grief level & date of that level (2)
Greif/hour over career and last X hours of play (2)
Squad kicks, total, and over last X hours of play (2)

I suggest X > 3... < 20. 10 sounds good to me.

All this stuff could be summerized into a single TK-risk level, that would combine all these stats into a single value...

Here's my point:

I want TK'ers the hell out of my life. The existing grief point system will work well against people outside your squad, but not at all once someone is inside your squad.

Because there is system in place against TK'ing outside a squad, dedicated, clever TKers will try to get inside a squad, so they can still get their jollies without suffering the consequences of the grief system.

So I'm making some suggestings for in-game systems that would shut TKers down completely. I'm sure there are other alternatives, and I'd love to hear them. That's not entirely true... I'd love for the devs to hear and IMPLEMENT them.

I realize that there are non-game-system solutions to in-squad TKs:
1) Only form squads with members of your outfit... but that that only works if you're in an outfit, and if you've got enough people around to actually form a squad.

2) Don't get into a squad, ever. But that cuts down on your BEP earning, and takes away a large portion of the game... organized combat.