Vehicle hard point system

DviddLeff · 2011-02-05, 05:14 AM

Over the past years I have put together this system which allows players to customise their vehicle chassis to a particular role on the battlefield. I posted it here in its basic from back in 2009 after the survey, but since then I have put together my Planetside Upgrade Project website and refined the concept as I did so.

The system stems from the BFR style system where they can customise their vehicle to a particular role, something which is incredibly interesting as it would allow players to try out new tactics across all vehicle types.

Today I went back over the system and improved the presentation on its page on the PUP site to make it a lot easier to look over quickly.

Here is the link:

https://sites.google.com/site/planet...rdpoint-system

Ultimately I would like to see a similar system in PSN.

Bags · 2011-02-05, 12:10 PM

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Oh, and I think the NC should be able to stick particle cannons on everything!

DviddLeff · 2011-02-05, 12:23 PM

Right, should be fixed so you can actually see the spreadsheet bits

Now that you can see them, you will see that only vehicles with heavy hard points could equip a particle cannon. So the NC could stick one on only those vehicles with what I have judged to have one, such as the BFR, Van and the Lib.

Following my vehicle overhauls other vehicles could also have them such as the AMS which could replace the cloaking bubble with a heavy weapon.

Bags · 2011-02-05, 01:24 PM

I was joking as particle cannon is ridiculously overpowered. The other faction's heavy gun doesn't even come close.

DviddLeff · 2011-02-05, 02:00 PM

Yeah it is, if I had my way with it I would reduce it's DPS to probably 2/3 of it's current status.

Bags · 2011-02-05, 02:13 PM

Still the only BFR weapon I find fun to use.

I'm not sure how I feel about this system. Could be OK, but I feel like we should KISS. Why fix what isn't terribly broken? :/

DviddLeff · 2011-02-05, 02:30 PM

Because MMOs need depth. Planetside takes a few months at most to master, and each individual role significantly less time than that. This system gives players more options for their kit which allows them to spend more time finding and perfecting their playstyle.

Planetside itself is stale, I hope PSN shakes things up.

kaffis · 2011-02-18, 12:32 AM

Originally Posted by DviddLeff

Because MMOs need depth.

I disagree that hard points add it, though.

When talking about game design, one game I continually come back to referencing is Team Fortress 2. If you read some of the developers' blogs, and listen to the bits of commentary they've included with the game, they did a good job of letting the interested player in on a lot of their very excellent game design decisions and epiphanies.

The one that prompts me to bring this up is ready recognizability. When they were designing their game, around the time where they made the big shift in art style, one of the things they decided was that the realistic style they were releasing screenshots for around 2002/3 wasn't conducive to good gameplay. The character models for the different classes were too similar. They realized (and I fully agree) that ensuring that your player can, upon spotting an enemy, instantly evaluate what the capabilities of that enemy are leads to a more fun and engaging game experience. That's one of the reasons they went for the exaggerated and very characterful art style; it allowed them to give each of their classes a very distinct silhouette that is readily identifiable even at a distance.

This is something that I believe Planetside benefited from, and should strive to retain, as well. The vehicles are easily identified, and once you've done so, you know what you're dealing with. Modular weapon systems will run contrary to this effect, and I believe that will be a detriment to gameplay.

Right now, if I'm cruising around, mowing down some infantry in a light vehicle with a buddy, and I see a prowler crest the next rise? I know to spin the wheel and head for the hills, because it's a fight I don't want to engage in. I can identify the fights that will be to my advantage, and those that won't, and choose when and where to engage in order to both have fun and promote my success.

Now, throw a modular weapon system into the mix, and see how that affects my gameplay. There's a prowler! Should I engage, or will I get slaughtered? I don't know! He could have his AA gun loaded. Or, he could have the standard prowler gun, in which case I'm utterly screwed. What do I do?

That's not depth. That's confusion, which is bad game design. You haven't given me a new choice ("What do I do?") or layer of strategy. You've deprived me of the information to MAKE that choice.

Now, that's not to say that I don't desire variety, and a diverse array of options to allow me to find the vehicle/weapons that best fit my desired playstyle. Want to give me the option to run an AA weapon on a heavily armored vehicle? Great! Make a new vehicle, though. That way, the variety and options should just be unique enough to visually identify at a distance, without having to squint and decide whether the gun is 2/3s the normal length, or maybe it just looks shorter because it's at an angle.. and boom, I'm dead.

Originally Posted by CutterJohn

That assumes that vehicle certs would be as cheap as they are in PS, which need not be the case. It took a great deal of cert points to get a super soldier fit together, while a tank was what.. 3 or 4? If The tank was 3 or 4 certs, and the additional weapons 1 or 2 each, for that tank, players would have enough to specialize in one vehicle along with getting a decent infantry kit together.

Hmm. I don't want to see people specialize really deep into one or two vehicles, though. I think one of the contributing factors to the strength of Planetside's combined arms was that basically everybody had room to cert some infantry stuff, so there was never a shortage of available infantry.

I think what you'd see in your example would be that a lot of people would "specialize" in multiple vehicles, while dropping their infantry kits entirely. After all, heavy tanks aren't always available, neither are good air assault vehicles, so you want to have multiple options. And if you're in the vehicles all the time, why keep an infantry kit, when you need the points to ensure you've got effective builds for vehicles available? Now, when the courtyard is clear, though, you've got a bunch of guys certed for 3 vehicles sitting around in their tanks instead of the same guys certed for 3 vehicles jumping out to hack a console, switch armor, and storm the base.

Encouraging breadth as you advanced was a strength of Planetside.

CutterJohn · 2011-02-18, 05:27 AM

Originally Posted by kaffis

I disagree that hard points add it, though.
Now, that's not to say that I don't desire variety, and a diverse array of options to allow me to find the vehicle/weapons that best fit my desired playstyle. Want to give me the option to run an AA weapon on a heavily armored vehicle? Great! Make a new vehicle, though. That way, the variety and options should just be unique enough to visually identify at a distance, without having to squint and decide whether the gun is 2/3s the normal length, or maybe it just looks shorter because it's at an angle.. and boom, I'm dead.

Now, that's not to say that I don't desire variety, and a diverse array of options to allow me to find the armor/weapons that best fit my desired playstyle. Want to give me the option to run an AA weapon in heavy infantry armor? Great! Make a new armor, though. That way, the variety and options should just be unique enough to visually identify at a distance, without having to squint and decide whether the gun is 2/3s the normal length, or maybe it just looks shorter because it's at an angle.. and boom, I'm dead.

Its interesting because you approach this from an infantry centric point of view. You should not cert too much in vehicles so that you can cert into some infantry stuff. You should not have to guess at what vehicles can field, but infantry and MAXs, fine.

Why is it fine that infantry armors have a huge range of customization, but vehicles do not? Because there are more vehicles than infantry armors? Sure, but thats a symptom of the problem.. Too many vehicles. Make fewer. You don't need the buggies, harasser, AND skyguard if you can swap weapons, as the chassis all have pretty similar characteristics.

As for the cert costs of specialization.. Look at the whole CE tree(10 certs)? Unimax(6)? Hacking(9)? MA/HA/AV(9)?

Meanwhile the tanks, the backbone of the outdoor game and one of the best all around units... 3 whole certs.

So what if it cost 6 or 8 certs to get the tank + extra weapons? Its not like there aren't things you can focus on that don't cost more.

It becomes even more fair if the bonus weapons require the gunner to have the certs, rather than the driver. Split the costs evenly.

Bags · 2011-02-05, 02:44 PM

Adding more weapons doesn't add any depth.

Gogita · 2011-02-05, 05:41 PM

I'm worried that vehicles will lose their own style... Every vehicle has a certain role in planetside. If players were able to change the weapon setup of vehicles, all the vehicles can more or less fit in every role.

I wouldn't want that if you spot an enemy vehicle, you also have to see first what weapons it has. Right now it is the case if you see a certain vehicle, you know what you can expect from it, which is nice.

CutterJohn · 2011-02-05, 09:28 PM

Originally Posted by Gogita

I wouldn't want that if you spot an enemy vehicle, you also have to see first what weapons it has. Right now it is the case if you see a certain vehicle, you know what you can expect from it, which is nice.

Then maybe we should have multiple styles of infantry armors, so that you can immediately recognize what kind of gun they are using?

As it stands, you really have no clue what a soldier has equipped. You can often guess based on position.. A MAX out in the field likely does not have AI weapons installed, but you don't know for certain.

And if the additional weapons had a cert cost, while the basic weapon came free with the vehicle, you would still have an idea of what to expect, though it wouldn't be absolute. Additionally, as time goes on people will figure out the optimal combos of weapons and vehicles, which will also allow you to learn what you are likely to run into.

Ideally(imo) is having people specialize in a particular vehicle or set of vehicles as much as people specialize in being a soldier. If someone wants to be the ultimate tanker, there would be a variety of certs available to upgrade/alter the abilities and capabilities of that person in a tank.

I'd love even more vehicle customization that simply guns, tbh. Maybe an equipment slot that offers countermeasures or capabilities you can cert and install, such as a self repair mechanism, temporary invulnerability shield(like BF2142 had on the tanks), a radar, a camouflage system that perhaps makes you look like a rock when immobile.. Lots of stuff.

Wheels too. Select treads if you want good climbing ability and lots of low end torque. Wheels if you want high speeds. Hoverballs or something to give you strafing abilities and allow you to cross water. On snow maps, front wheel skis and back wheel treads could be nice.

Don't get me wrong, PS vehicle combat was great, but you peaked on capabilities very quickly. If all you did was drive tanks, well, you could be a 100% effective tank driver day one. Cert tanks, cert engy, get the advanced targeting implant. And you're done.

Compare that to all of the equipment a grunt got to choose from.

Furret · 2011-02-06, 12:56 AM

I feel like this idea comes very very close to what people hated about BFRs. One man armies that could really deal with anything.

Now before everyone goes crazy, its obviously not quite the same thing, but if you can equip a vehicle with an AA gun, an AV gun, and an AI gun, and be able to deal with anything. I think it would change the game to a less large scale coordination to a lot of small coordinated groups. Back when I played, the optimal size for a group was a full platoon, because you could really get some of everything.

If the hardpoints become a reality, everyone will use a deliverer or some variant and cert AA/AV/AI and you'll have a lot of groups of four running around killing each other instead of the more massive aspect of PS 1.

I think there's a way to balance the hardpoint system to make it work (and actually be quite cool) but I can't think of it right now, probably because its 1 in the morning.

Bags · 2011-02-06, 12:59 AM

Originally Posted by CutterJohn

Then maybe we should have multiple styles of infantry armors, so that you can immediately recognize what kind of gun they are using?

As it stands, you really have no clue what a soldier has equipped. You can often guess based on position.. A MAX out in the field likely does not have AI weapons installed, but you don't know for certain.

And if the additional weapons had a cert cost, while the basic weapon came free with the vehicle, you would still have an idea of what to expect, though it wouldn't be absolute. Additionally, as time goes on people will figure out the optimal combos of weapons and vehicles, which will also allow you to learn what you are likely to run into.

Ideally(imo) is having people specialize in a particular vehicle or set of vehicles as much as people specialize in being a soldier. If someone wants to be the ultimate tanker, there would be a variety of certs available to upgrade/alter the abilities and capabilities of that person in a tank.

I'd love even more vehicle customization that simply guns, tbh. Maybe an equipment slot that offers countermeasures or capabilities you can cert and install, such as a self repair mechanism, temporary invulnerability shield(like BF2142 had on the tanks), a radar, a camouflage system that perhaps makes you look like a rock when immobile.. Lots of stuff.

Wheels too. Select treads if you want good climbing ability and lots of low end torque. Wheels if you want high speeds. Hoverballs or something to give you strafing abilities and allow you to cross water. On snow maps, front wheel skis and back wheel treads could be nice.

Don't get me wrong, PS vehicle combat was great, but you peaked on capabilities very quickly. If all you did was drive tanks, well, you could be a 100% effective tank driver day one. Cert tanks, cert engy, get the advanced targeting implant. And you're done.

Compare that to all of the equipment a grunt got to choose from.

Er, I can almost certainly tell what weapons a player has based upon their name / where they are.

If they're out and about in rexo, they most certainly have MA / ESAV.
If they're inside a building, they most certainly have ESHA / Decimators.
If their name is ZeroEnigma, they most certainly have SA.

We don't need one man vehicle armies. Certing prowler should not give you effective AV, AI, and AA.

CutterJohn · 2011-02-06, 05:31 AM

Originally Posted by Gogita

We don't need one man vehicle armies. Certing prowler should not give you effective AV, AI, and AA.

That assumes that vehicle certs would be as cheap as they are in PS, which need not be the case. It took a great deal of cert points to get a super soldier fit together, while a tank was what.. 3 or 4? If The tank was 3 or 4 certs, and the additional weapons 1 or 2 each, for that tank, players would have enough to specialize in one vehicle along with getting a decent infantry kit together.