Drivers

CutterJohn · 2011-02-23, 06:37 PM

Several thoughts concerning certing vehicles, and driving vehicles in general.

The first is the driver spends the certs, gets the tank, and then.. He has to do the driving. Some scrub gets the benefit of the cert by getting to play the gunner which is imo the more enjoyable role, at least for some vehicles. I would like to see it made so someone with the cert just needs to be in the vehicle, and then anyone can drive. Cert holder gets out, the vehicle stops.

Now, granted, this won't work all the time. Some random person is likely to get us killed. But when I played with friends, we would generally trade off every so often. Sometimes driving, sometimes gunning. Unfortunately, this required 2 certs for the vehicle. I think it would be beneficial to give drivers the option. Sure, you'll see plenty pull a tank, hop into the turret, and spam need a driver, but they'll learn quick thats not wise.

The other thing I wish to discuss.. Vehicle driving in general is pretty unrewarding. I would like, as the driver, to have a 360 view, with a method of marking the target I want the gunner to shoot at, so I'm not just the driver, but the vehicle commander as well. Voice coms would work for this, but those aren't always an option. Other vehicles, without guns, could use some, or something else to do. Lodestars, for instance, would be wonderfully aided by having a heal turret up top that shoots out glue like a firehose. ANTs could perhaps use an EMP turret for self defense, and AMSs a 12mm or something.

Basically just more to do, more options, be it turrets for shooting, or defensive gizmos like smoke/flares/temporary shielding(bf2142 style.. awesome game)/afterburners/etc. Something more than just driving about.

DviddLeff · 2011-02-23, 06:49 PM

Not sure I like the idea of certing a vehicle and getting someone else to drive the thing... even if you are in a crew spot. Cant quite put my finger on why I dont like it though.

Designating targets is an ability I have given to squad leaders and squad second in commands in the upgrade project, as part of the Command Overhaul.

Timantium · 2011-02-24, 08:05 AM

Originally Posted by DviddLeff

Not sure I like the idea of certing a vehicle and getting someone else to drive the thing... even if you are in a crew spot. Cant quite put my finger on why I dont like it though.

Designating targets is an ability I have given to squad leaders and squad second in commands in the upgrade project, as part of the Command Overhaul.

I think that something might be related to those knuckleheads who get people to load into a vehicle and then drive them out into the middle of the water and dump the vehicle or boot everyone out.

I cert to drive because I like driving. It's not exactly a racing game, but I am good at driving and I enjoy the strategy involved of working with my gunner to get kills together. I have to position him/her in a place that they can have clear lines of fire while also keeping us in the best defensive position possible. Thats why I think it's fun. I would like more credit for assists perhaps.

I spec HA grunt and mag/ams/transport driver because those are the things I like to do. If you freak out over K/D then driving might not be your thing.

I like the vehicle commander idea though, that would be handy. Now I just point the vehicle at targets and V-W-V or V-W-A or V-W-I.

Baneblade · 2011-02-24, 03:04 PM

My only qualm about driving is that you as the driver get shafted in kills. The vehicle should get the kill credit as a whole. My kill counts would be roughly quadrupled if this happened.

kaffis · 2011-02-23, 10:15 PM

I'm not keen on another person driving. Vehicles handle differently, and providing a good, stable gunnery platform is a skill all in itself. Presumably, by requiring certs to drive, you focus your attention on the couple vehicles you're certed for. I shudder at the thought of certing a liberator, climbing into the bombardier's seat, and taking whatever pilot happens to show up. Other vehicles aren't quite as dramatic an example, but anybody who's ever hit the elevation limit while their driver drives across a hill can attest that the driver's skill and familiarity with the vehicle and its performance has a lot of impact already.

In addition, there's an incentive to have the cert even if it means you end up driving: being in a vehicle often yields good experience. Having the cert means you can be in that vehicle as often as lockout timers allow.

I do agree that the driver could use a little more to help him feel engaged in the fight, though. Calling targets is a good duty. I'm not sure a HUD tool to do so is necessarily the best option; my preference would be to ensure that in-game ad hoc voice works flawlessly and without serious performance hits, such that pretty much everybody can and does run it. Sure, not everybody will have a mic, but you don't need your gunner to have a mic if the matter at hand is having the driver call targets. So long as the two of you can make a connection (i.e., no firewalling issues like those that plagued PS's voice) and he's got his sound turned on, you can get yourself a mic and be heard.

Really, though, I don't think drivers of combat vehicles are the worst off, as far as promoting a fun gameplay experience. Tank drivers get lots of action (that earns them XP as their gunners' skill allows), and get to make all the (crucial, when you think about it) decisions about when to withdraw, where to strike, etc.

Transport drivers, on the other hand, have wimpy guns backing them up (and rarely adding much to the XP) and aren't expected to do things like withdraw, since their purpose is to deliver troops to a hot area. Sure, you get some thrill-seekers for whom dodging enemy fire is its own reward, but it often feels like a chore, especially when you factor in honking the horn waiting for people to get in instead of hopping on a mosquito or fury..

Furret · 2011-02-23, 11:11 PM

I'm gonna go with Dvidd here, I don't quite like the idea, but I'm not sure why.

I think its because someone has to do the driving anyway, and I'm not gonna drive a vanny for someone when i've certed reaver myself.

You're on the right track though, driving should have some reward, be it experience, or doing more than just driving.

Driving is difficult though, and as a frequent visitor to the gunner position, I know the difference between being able to nail my target consistently, and rarely even being able to put my crosshairs on someone. The problem is, being skillful at that [placing your gunner in a good position] doesn't really give you very much reward, other than watching the killfeed ... And seeing your gunner's name there.

Being able to prioritize targets would definitely be a good addition to driving. Depending on how they work the system, clicking on something could designate RED priority, right click is ORANGE priority, double click is YELLOW priority, and double right click is GREEN priority to make it easier for your gunner to think about aim instead of what to hit.

It would also increase the trust required in your driver to pick the appropriate targets, and would allow the driver to maneuver about the target better, which was always my issue when gunning for randoms. After gunning for the same guy for a month or so, you can predict where he's going and where to place your shots. If the driver already knows what the gunner is aiming at, it makes vehicles with good drivers all the more deadly.

CutterJohn · 2011-02-24, 12:31 AM

It makes more sense if you just consider certs as they really are.. An entirely arbitrary game mechanic whose sole purpose is to limit access. What, after all, could possibly be so hard about learning to use, say, MA, when you have access to the suppressor.

So long as the spirit of the rule is maintained, that a cert is needed to pull a vehicle, I really don't see where it would matter who is in which spot. Both are equally important. Without the driver, you have a turret that will die fast. Without the gunner, you have a mobile paperweight.

Traak · 2011-02-24, 12:45 AM

Yeah, the fun quotient for gunning is way higher than for driving. Giving the driver double the XP that the gunner gets, or triple, or five times as much, or ten, so if the kill yields 2200xp, the gunner gets 200 and the driver 2000, might make more people willing to drive.

Grimster · 2011-02-24, 04:18 AM

Originally Posted by Traak

Yeah, the fun quotient for gunning is way higher than for driving. Giving the driver double the XP that the gunner gets, or triple, or five times as much, or ten, so if the kill yields 2200xp, the gunner gets 200 and the driver 2000, might make more people willing to drive.

I think it such scenario you would end up with a lot of vehicles but no gunners. But imo the driver should get the same XP as the gunner gets.

DviddLeff · 2011-02-24, 04:24 AM

Yeah, drivers already get XP for kills by those in their vehicles, even if they are not in the same squad.

When I am on Vent with an outfit mate driving my Mag I am pretty content. I would prefer to be gunning though, but I am a better than average Mag driver.

Still pretty good at gunning, as the NC on Ish yesterday can attest to

CutterJohn · 2011-02-25, 02:56 AM

Originally Posted by Grimster

I think it such scenario you would end up with a lot of vehicles but no gunners. But imo the driver should get the same XP as the gunner gets.

Wait.. my memory must be bad. I know there is shared xp, but its not split equally?

That most definitely must change. All non passenger positions should have an equal split.

And yes, you can get more drivers by bribing them, but I'd prefer seeing them made more interesting roles, and the vehicles more fun to drive. I did rather approve of the bfrs in that respect, since they had useful driver guns and a very useful gunner gun.

Depends I suppose on the fun factor of the vehicle. The more fun it is to drive, the less it needs a driver gun. But I still wouldn't mind them.. Nobody, after all, complains nor minds that most aircraft have driver guns. Which makes sense when compared to real life, but being a game, I think we can ignore that somewhat. Imagine if the driver could control the chaingun on top of the prowler turret. That would be pretty damned sweet imo.

Lartnev · 2011-02-25, 12:53 PM

Originally Posted by CutterJohn

Imagine if the driver could control the chaingun on top of the prowler turret. That would be pretty damned sweet imo.

Yeah, until they drive the Prowler into a tree or off a cliff

Warborn · 2011-02-24, 07:33 AM

Driving is pretty boring compared to gunning. I'm not sure what the answer is to make team vehicles more compelling. Eliminating/nerfing solo vehicles is a decent way to encourage somewhat more team vehicle use, probably, but that doesn't solve the core issue of driving being pretty disengaged compared to being a gunner.

I do like the idea that the driver could have a more interactive role through designating targets and stuff. That actually seems like a really solid idea to me. That's the kind of stuff that is probably the solution. Weapons for drivers might not be a good idea, but giving them a more interactive function would help even if they're not racking up kills.

klu · 2011-02-24, 04:04 PM

you could go about vehicle certs in a more general way instead of vehicle specific certs. ie. veh crew cert, advanced veh, expert veh. as an example driving an atv would require 1 cert point, spawning a buggy or gunning would require 2 cert points. spawning a bigger vehicle would require more cert points. to operate a bigger vehicle would require a larger number of points for the overall crew, not just the driver. possibly swapping rolls and sharing xp.

Lartnev · 2011-02-24, 04:11 PM

Seems to me the best solution is that the driver and gunner share the kill, and the experience is split 2/3 to the driver and 1/3 to the gunner. The gunner may have made the kill but the driver brought the tank to do it.

I hope PS:N will employ a similar spot assist system to Bad Company 2 which would take care of your target acquisition wishes. Would also help in those all-too-familiar moments when the gunner is shooting at some infantry in front while an enemy tank clobbers you from the rear. I'd prefer drivers to stick to their task of positioning the vehicle for maximum impact and worrying about the vehicle's survival rather than playing tank commander. If you can multi-task however, knock yourself out