MAX Balance

Peacemaker · 2011-03-09, 08:22 PM

Ok. I know a lot of you are probably going to say there is no problem, but either

A. You don't play the game anymore

or... Drum roll please....

B. You're fooling your self

While I think the NC vs the TR max are respectively balanced I do not see a balance with them vs the VS maxs. I speak mostly of special ability but its a bit deeper than that. Lets look at special ability first.

TR - Lock Down, Prevents movements, makes you a deci magnet, easy target. The NC love a MAX who is foolish enough to lock down as not only are you ripe for Decis but Phoenix as well. There is a very limited number of situations where locking down does not get you killed rather quickly. Mostly, its usefull against one or two hostiles. The DPS increase only brings it slightly over the others. Same goes for the ROF Booster. Its short lived and easily countered. HIDE. Removing Third Person might help the TR MAX but it still is a deci magnet, and the best way to not get killed by it is not attack it without decis.

NC - Shield, No down side to shields. You can still fire (I think), you can still move, you still lock targets. The only thing I can think that would balance this out would be disable firing, and continue to disable it after the shield is down. IT NEEDS A DOWN SIDE.

VS - Jump jets, ABSOLUTELY NO DOWN SIDE. VS maxs can use their jump jets to get to places unobtainable by infantry without aircraft, they can use them to dodge damage indoors and out doors, they can still fire, they can still lock. Bunny hopping on the ceiling of a stair well with lag is just stupid powerful. Where is the balance?

Now look at some specifics.

AA/ AV Max vs Infantry with empire specific AV weapons -

The Terran AA max does absolutely jack shit to infantry. Only a direct hit will hurt them and even then does very low damage. The accuracy is garbage which means you wont hit them, and the DPS is crap unless your locked down. Now if your locked down, you cant move and the target and use cover to beat you no problem. The Pounder max while a bit better than the Burster against infantry is still crap. It can only bounce grenades around corners.

The VS and NC AA / AV MAXs on the other hand can easily own an infantry man who doesn't have a decimator. (VS Even with them as they can dodge with the jump jets) UM HELLO!? Why do both of these do better than the TR? The VS AV is crazy with its burn time. None of them have projectile arcs, none of them are hard to use.

Lastly lets look at AA balance. The VS and NC AA weapons are area denial platforms. Put X number of AA in an area and theres no way to get near them without eating dirt in an aircraft. Put 10 bursters in one spot and 4 skilled pilots can take them out. Bursters shoot at you and you *GASP* TURN!!!!! Now your not getting shot. It also requires some amount of skill to lead a target, but good luck doing enough damage to kill it before it runs away. The only targets I see bursters take down are HOVERING AIRCRAFT, or people who just get unlucky.

NC and VS AA are stupidly more powerful than the TR counter-part. AND NO I DONT CARE HOW MANY AIRCRAFT GET AWAY FROM YOU. There is no chance for an aircraft to get away if he makes one mistake, against a burster you could screw up three times and still make it. I must also address the retarded range some of these projectiles have. Hitting targets more than an SOI and a half away from them (Especially the NC max whom can get 4 missiles off on a wasp and get a kill if he doesn't have 100% afterburner)

Please, make your arguments. I'm arguing for either a massive change to the TR max's to put them on Par with the others, or a big ass Nerf to bring them down to TR MAX levels. TR Works well on paper, VS / NC just work.

Rbstr · 2011-03-09, 08:44 PM

I don't know why people insist on arguing current game balance in the PSN discussion forum.

How should a new game construct max combat so this perceived problem doesn't exist?

Bags · 2011-03-09, 09:07 PM

You see the scat max as balanced?

And burster is fine... L2P. Not as easy as starfire, but it's as potent.

Hamma · 2011-03-09, 10:02 PM

Moved this thread to PS discussion.

Peacemaker · 2011-03-09, 10:12 PM

Hmmm maybe I shoulda written something about PS:N into that huh?

Lonehunter · 2011-03-09, 11:01 PM

I'm still reading the rest, but I think the NC MAX bubble goes down when you fire, and comes back up when you stop.

The Desert Fox · 2011-03-10, 02:09 AM

Lol I just went on a rant on the PS forums because someone started a thread about how the starfire is too nerfed and needs a good buff. I posted my normal encounter with one:

**** NO. **** NO. NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO! I hate the ***king starfire as it is. I am so god damn tired of trying to fight the vanu and when I get within a mile of a tower or base I get:

MISSLE LOCK MISSLE LOCK MISSLE LOCK OMGWT*BBQ MISSLE LOCK 12 DIFFERENT DIRECTIONS RUN RUN RUN

ME: WT* WT* WT* WT*, Afterburner, Tree, Wall, Mountain! GO GO GO

(missle lock stops after getting 12 miles away)

Me :whew that was close

BOOM BOOM BANG BANG PHEW PHEW EXPLOSION.

Robert089 · 2011-03-10, 06:26 AM

Yeah you failed to mention the Scatter MAX and how insanely over powered it is.

The fact the NC and VS MAX abilities allow them to absorb / dodge decimator shots is enough to put balance out of whack, and then of course there is the fact that TR MAXes need to lock down in order to compete. The overcharge ability was a nice surprise when I resubbed, however it still doesn't give us the ability to dodge shots and gives us a bright red "SHOOT ME" bubble.

The Desert Fox · 2011-03-10, 10:50 AM

Lol I learned real quick in the TR AI MAX that Locking down is a horrible waste of time, instead you hide around a corner, when the infantry come you overcharge and personal shield, kill 1 or 2 them RUN THE FUCK AWAY.

Azellon · 2011-03-10, 12:21 PM

So odd to see TR MAX pilots complaining.

I've never had trouble rolling infantry with any TR MAX types, and I've got more kills in a Burster than a Starfire. You have to learn to lead which isn't difficult at all and enemy pilots have no warning until your shots start hitting them. Since I don't ever play NC I can't speak to them, but I know VS MAXes aren't any stronger, they just play different.

Gonna agree with Bags here.

The Desert Fox · 2011-03-10, 01:39 PM

I don't disagree with Bags, all I am saying is it just seems like against a burster you can usually get away if your fast enough, and with the NC and VR counterparts you can't get within 5 miles of a SOI without have 15 missile locks from every fucking tree or mountain in the area. I wish we had SOME way to counter the missile lock, even a little.

When it comes to infantry, I really have no problem with our AI MAX, I get plenty of kills with it, it just seems like our "lock Down" ability is really useless 99% of the time cause everyone and there brother has AV cert so the second we start shooting they get behind something, pull a deci, and were hit 2-3 times before we can even move.

Looking at our ability as an "advantage" is kinda a joke.

Raymac · 2011-03-10, 01:39 PM

Balance balance balance. Cry cry cry. Over the years, I think the large changes they made to the TR maxes were needed (flipping AI/AV, adding Overdrive, etc) but now everything is close enough. Let me repeat that, the balance is good enough.

Every mmo out there has a whole army of people obsessed with balance. There's always pros and cons, but it seems any differences are blown way out of proportion. "Perfect" balance is impossible unless you just give everyone exactly the same stuff. Even then, people will cry about certain weapons being more effective than others which makes them "broken".

IMHO, the balance is just fine in PS. For PS:N, they will no doubt have to play around with the balance just like every other game, but over time it will get close enough.

Azellon · 2011-03-10, 01:51 PM

tbh, when it comes to balance I genuinely think TR have it real good. Yeah you're a sitting duck if you come across someone who is quicker with their Deci than you are with disengaging your anchors and getting behind something, but if you're quick that doesn't happen all that often unless there's nothing to get behind.

When this happens, I humbly suggest that you're doing it wrong. The TR MAX (every iteration) is very, very clearly designed as a defensive powerhouse. TR can move in to a position and hold that position indefinitely. Yes, they're a bit weak on the offense because they can't advance and fire at full strength like the other MAXes, but their defensive strength more than makes up for it. Experienced CRs and Platoon Leaders know how to use this strength for an offensive advantage, moving in to an area and setting up in a defensive formation, clearing a path forward for the rest with heavy covering fire and then picking up and moving again. I've watched TR use this tactic over and over again and it always works because that's what TR are good at. NC and VS have to get lucky to break a good TR defense.

Defensively, the TR MAX ability is godlike.

The Desert Fox · 2011-03-10, 02:06 PM

Originally Posted by Azellon

tbh, when it comes to balance I genuinely think TR have it real good. Yeah you're a sitting duck if you come across someone who is quicker with their Deci than you are with disengaging your anchors and getting behind something, but if you're quick that doesn't happen all that often unless there's nothing to get behind.

Let me ask, when I am guarding a tower or even a hallway, or in the CY. What am I supposed to get behind? If I were an infantryman, I see a TR max I hit him with a deci, and I see he is disengaging to run, I then follow him and shoot him in the back while he attempts to "get behind something". This is a 1v1 situation, what about a fireteam with Decis? Hes dead before he disengages.

Originally Posted by Azellon

When this happens, I humbly suggest that you're doing it wrong. The TR MAX (every iteration) is very, very clearly designed as a defensive powerhouse. TR can move in to a position and hold that position indefinitely.

I just don't see that, I see how they were DESIGNED to be that way, but in a war where one side has a lot more tanks then the other side, doesn't mean they have much of an advantage if the other side's infantry all have Javelin Missile Systems.

Originally Posted by Azellon

Yes, they're a bit weak on the offense because they can't advance and fire at full strength like the other MAXes, but their defensive strength more than makes up for it. Experienced CRs and Platoon Leaders know how to use this strength for an offensive advantage, moving in to an area and setting up in a defensive formation, clearing a path forward for the rest with heavy covering fire and then picking up and moving again. I've watched TR use this tactic over and over again and it always works because that's what TR are good at. NC and VS have to get lucky to break a good TR defense.

I have never doubted the TR's offensive ability, IMO the TR maxes are BETTER on the offensive because of our overcharge thing. That's not the complain here. The problem is supposed special ability to lock down is really useless compared to the NC shield or the Vanu jumpjets. There ability have real, practical use, especially in combating AV.

Originally Posted by Azellon

Defensively, the TR MAX ability is godlike.

As I said before, 8 years ago at the start of the war I couldn't agree more, but now that everyone and their brother has some sort of AV. It has become more of a liability then an advantage despite the increased firepower, whilst the Vanu and NC keep their advantage.

The Desert Fox · 2011-03-10, 01:52 PM

Originally Posted by Raymac

Balance balance balance. Cry cry cry. Over the years, I think the large changes they made to the TR maxes were needed (flipping AI/AV, adding Overdrive, etc) but now everything is close enough. Let me repeat that, the balance is good enough.

Every mmo out there has a whole army of people obsessed with balance. There's always pros and cons, but it seems any differences are blown way out of proportion. "Perfect" balance is impossible unless you just give everyone exactly the same stuff. Even then, people will cry about certain weapons being more effective than others which makes them "broken".

IMHO, the balance is just fine in PS. For PS:N, they will no doubt have to play around with the balance just like every other game, but over time it will get close enough.

For the record my complaint is not necessarily the balance of the MAX's, mine was simply to give us fly boys something, ANYTHING to combat a missile lock, even if it's just for a second or 2. Every damn time I try to get into a fight the very second I see a missile lock, I hit the afterburner and hide behind anything I can find as I am running, and don't give me that "get better, L2P" bullshit. I am not saying I am great at it but it's ridicules that not matter what I do, In a Reaver I am almost guaranteed to lose half my health to a missile lock that had me for maybe 3-4 seconds. 2 nights ago me and a buddy were fighting the Vanu on Hossin. We would fly Reavers from Bitol to Voltan. Before we even hit the shoreline or saw the fight we had to fire off as much as we could and turn tail fast, because we would get missile locks from 3 different directions, Every single run we made no matter what direction we came from we got off maybe 10-12 rockets, and received 40-70% damage every time. This is when the majority of the fight was already in Voltan CY. This is from some Vanu Maxs flying atop some trees or a fucking mountain. and we can't even get a look before we had to run.
/endrant

Sorry about that, I am all about balance, at the same time wev had technology for awhile now that can dodge locked on missiles with flares or something. Why they decided we couldn't use something like that, even if it was only a missile or 2 is beyond me.