Do MMOFPS really work?

Miir · 2011-08-26, 02:35 PM

In 8 long years since Planetside was released. I've not seen one other developer deliver on another MMOFPS. I take this as a testament that SOE has some talent when it comes to programming and making MMO games.♥

That said... why hasn't anyone else been able to produce another game at the level Planetside was at? I mean something akin to 200-300 player epic battles.

Planetside 2 is suppose to have more up to date graphics. Better physics. I believe they said Forgelight engine is suppose to have no loading zones just one big open world? (Maybe just for EQ next?) Take all this and shove 300 players fighting over a base via land, sea and air and as awesome of an image my mind can conjure up.

All I can think is...Is this really going to work? or Why hasn't anyone else made a game like this?

Sirisian · 2011-08-26, 02:47 PM

Originally Posted by Miir

All I can think is...Is this really going to work? or Why hasn't anyone else made a game like this?

Not as profitable as an MMORPG. Even bad MMORPGs usually have a lot of subscribers and keep them for much longer. Not to mention most MMOFPS games artificially restrict their content to the level of a normal FPS for balancing reasons and the game becomes stale quickly.

Bags · 2011-08-26, 02:51 PM

Companies like to play it safe, which is why the market is saturated in COD clones. The first Planetside flopped and any company looking at that is probably going to arrive at the conclusion that MMOFPS cannot work well enough to be worth the risk.

Logit · 2011-08-26, 02:52 PM

Higby has touched on this topic in a few of his interviews.

My Take on it from an outsiders perspective, is people look at Planetside and all the businessmen see is that it was a total failure when it comes to $$$. So it's hard for people to be like, "Hey! Look how great that game did! We should copy it and make our own version!" When in reality they game didn't do well, but it was more so SOE's fault than the game itself.

There really isn't any reason the game shouldn't "work" persay, but I don't think even at release we should be expecting a 100% finished product.

Basically I think it's really hard to pull off, and these other companies aren't trying to sink tons of money into something that's gonna blow up in their face.

TBH, I don't think SOE has much a of choice but to make Planetside 2 incredibly Epic, or there going to be shutting down more facilities and laying off more people.

Peacemaker · 2011-08-26, 03:07 PM

Very interesting thought honestly. I mean, when you REALLY think about it no one has ever done anything CLOSE to the scale. Battlefield series hosted up to 64 players at a time. That's been the largest number for FPSs since BF1942.

I add on the following to your question :
Why hasn't anyone done what would possibly be easier than PS1. Just make a game that is an FPS with a scale of perhaps the distance between 2 bases in PS1, that hosted 256 players. I imagine if you did such a thing and it WASN'T an MMO it would probably sell well. No one has even TRIED to step on Planetside's toes in the actual amount of players on the battlefield.

Now in response to said question, my opinion:

I think the explanation lies in the numbers Planetside had. Planetside, WoW, and EVE-Online all came out at relatively the same time. They were probably looking at "Who sold the most?" Suddenly a lot of Publishers see the following a few months later:

WoW : Millions of Users
EVE-Online :Few Hundred Thousand
Planetside : One hundred Fifty Thousand? At one time? IDK I think I'm being generous here.... 150k all subed at once would mean EVERY cont was pop locked on EVERY server if online at the same time.

So... what you then see is a scurry to get developers working on MMORPGs and odd off shoots of the same genre. Everyone wants in. Publishers generally go where the money is at. I think development studios probably put forth idea's for funding along the lines of a REAL MMOFPS, not instanced 10v10, but couldn't get funding.

What I'm saying is, MAYBE the industry saw the small cult following PS had and decided that cashing in on the WoW clone idea (or focusing on projects that had already proven them selfs) was the better idea.

An MMOFPS might then be considered by some freelance studio, but maybe its seen as too big a risk. I really don't know why a game that features the size of battles of PS run on servers just like you'd play a game of Bad Company2. It seems like it would work.

Further more, on "Do MMOFPS really work?", I think we are about to find out. Planetside 2 may determine how long till we see the next MMOFPS. If for instance PS2 were to be massively successful. Rave reviews, game of the year, alot of subscribers. MMOFPS might be the next big thing. Suddenly you'd see the same thing as the WoW clones, but everyone would constantly be upping the ante by promising more players, or a market, ect...

Alternatively it could bomb and we wouldn't see anything but a continuation on the tried and true 64 player servers BF3 is bringing back.

Zulthus · 2011-08-26, 03:20 PM

Originally Posted by Peacemaker

I mean, when you REALLY think about it no one has ever done anything CLOSE to the scale. Battlefield series hosted up to 64 players at a time. That's been the largest number for FPSs since BF1942.

MAG for PS3 had up to 256 players... but the game really, really sucked.

Bags · 2011-08-26, 03:36 PM

Originally Posted by Zulthus

MAG for PS3 had up to 256 players... but the game really, really sucked.

And was made by Sony, ironically.

BorisBlade · 2011-08-26, 06:44 PM

Originally Posted by Zulthus

MAG for PS3 had up to 256 players... but the game really, really sucked.

But it was not done in a persistant world. It was just instanced matches. And like others have said, it sucked, it was done so terribly its not even funny. One thing about sony, they try for profit, not for a good game, which ends up meaning bad games or steering good games off the cliff.

CutterJohn · 2011-08-27, 04:42 AM

Originally Posted by Peacemaker

Very interesting thought honestly. I mean, when you REALLY think about it no one has ever done anything CLOSE to the scale. Battlefield series hosted up to 64 players at a time. That's been the largest number for FPSs since BF1942.

Why does everyone always forget the other mmofps? The first mmofps, ww2ol. Even Higles ignores it in his interviews when he bigs up PS1 by saying its the only mmofps ever.

Oh, and btw, it had probably 100x the land area of PS1. Its map was a 1/4 scale rendering of europe. And far more units and weapons. Actual flight physics. A realistic damage model with vehicle softkills, ricochets. Actual foliage and forests. And lots of continued development(though its release was pretty atrocious).

As for why its never done..

-There are a plethora of multiplayer FPS options out there, with no sub cost. Thats stiff competition.

-Its hard to add carrots that keep people paying without pissing everyone off.

-Its much more difficult to program.

-Its operating costs are higher. More servers, more powerful servers, more bandwidth.

-It absolutely relies on a high population to be successful. Low populations make the game not fun, reinforcing a negative feedback loop as more people leave.

I think SOE can make PS2 a great mmofps. I am less inclined to believe they can make a successful one that will last more than a year or two before its glory fades again.

Raymac · 2011-08-26, 03:46 PM

I've asked myself this same question so many times, and I honestly don't know the answer. To me, an MMOFPS makes perfect sense.

The last 2 COD games broke records for any entertainment release. That means it made more money than any other game, book, or movie...ever.
WoW is a cash cow with millions of subscribers and raking in billions of dollars.

Why then would you not combine the 2 ideas which would have the potential to be the most lucrative entertainment product in the history of mankind?

I hope PS2 is a success for the genre as a whole.

Miir · 2011-08-26, 03:59 PM

They should have made MAG for the PC. boo!

Originally Posted by Raymac

The last 2 COD games broke records for any entertainment release. That means it made more money than any other game, book, or movie...ever.
WoW is a cash cow with millions of subscribers and raking in billions of dollars.

Clearly WoW subscribers prove there is a large market for RPG style games, and COD proves there is a large FPS market when you combine, Playstation 3, Xbox and PC sales.

But I wonder what sort of numbers there are specifically for PC FPS games. It must be low enough not to entice more developers into doing more MMOFPS.

Sirisian · 2011-08-26, 04:18 PM

Originally Posted by Miir

But I wonder what sort of numbers there are specifically for PC FPS games.

FPS/RPG hybrids for single player have been popular for a very long time. You have a basic formula when you look at Bioshock 1/2/Infinity, Deus Ex, Singularity, Might and Magic: Dark Messiah, Call of Cthulhu: Dark Corners of the Earth, Elder Scrolls, and many more. Those games do very well for themselves.

Pulling that community into a multiplayer game though is another challenge. Then again pulling in the multiplayer community from COD/BF is probably much easier since most of them already play in 32 player matches. However, that same gameplay doesn't work with 1K people (theoretically) so the changes probably turn them off.

Baneblade · 2011-08-26, 05:15 PM

I think there is a certain lack of concept about what an MMOFPS can accomplish. Most people presume that such a thing can only really end up being a persistent world massive player wargame.

There are plenty of MMORPGs that do include and in some cases prefer an FPS control system, yet they seem to be trying to cater to the pen and paper self empowerment model rather than just trying to invent a living breathing world that is not just a place to increase your character's ability to ruin other character's day.

I see the true future of the MMO genre being an all encompassing game of true FPS, RTS, and RPG elements without the silliness of generated content designed to direct a player, or a mindless battle over a never changing landscape.

Hamma · 2011-08-26, 05:15 PM

Nobody has done it because they are afraid from what happened to PlanetSide. imo anyways

raw · 2011-08-26, 03:59 PM

technical limitations mostly, coupled with the fact that publishers want to play it save and game developers are lazy bums (they'd need to code the whole infrastructure from the ground up, including the engine).

with aventurine's darkfall-engine (wich can btw be licensed) and now PS2 we're seeing the first truly largescale engines popping into existance after PS1.