Diversity on the battlefield + class system

[Azren]

As far as I understand the idea behind PS 2 class system is that everyone can unlock every basic class in a very short time. As you advance in battle ranks you will have the option to unlock various aspects of the said classes, like sidegrades. However there is no limit on how many classes your character can have unlocked, only how deep you can go in them.

Wouldn't this mean that everyone would have access to every kind of basic weapon/vehicle after the first few days? If so, how would the battlefield look like; on a map with dense forest wouldn't we only see an insane amount of air cav, while on wide flat areas a huge number of tanks? Isn't the diversity of the battle in question here?

Another thought about this system is the following: Imagine riding your vanguard and blowing up a stray foot soldier. In a minute that very same foot soldier will be back in a reaver blasting your tank. Of course this is something that can happen in PS too, however unlike PS 2, not every "stray foot soldier" will have reaver certed.

Being able to unlock all possible basic vehicles would mean that you have at your disposal the best counter to whatever the enemy throws at you.

If what I wrote above is in fact the case, there is a very simple way to balance the diversity one character can have. A very similar way to the current cert system. Allow players to only select up to a fixed number of classes at the same time. For example a character can have all classes unlocked, but at spawning he can only select MBT driver/max/engineer/Heavy assault, because these are the roles he pre-selected. Of course the pre-selection can be changed at any time, however only with a time penalty of 6 (?) hours.

[Jownzorz]

Your example is relatively flawed, due to the fact that there will be a severe learning curve for pilots. They've already said that most of the first time pilots crash multiple times before they get it right. In addition, they will only have a stock reaver, IF that is even part of the basic skill. You might only be able to get in a mosi.

In addition, that tank should have no issue dealing with one stock reaver, seeing as it will have the ability to upgrade its turrets with AA.

The terrain always dictates what there will be. You would be foolish to run around as a soldier on an open plane.

All I'm saying is the skill tree and sidegrades will keep the balance.

[Kalbuth]

I didn't see the info about being able to have all certs very easily. As far as I understood, there is a cert tree like currently on top of time based skill learning, but I've no more source for this either

[Azren]

The info I have says that there is indeed a skill tree, but not just one, several. You get a skill tree for every class. Each character can have every basic class unlocked (maybe by default, maybe by a minimal learning time).

What this thread comes down to is; do you think that the avaiable classes at a given time should be limited for the character (for example 3 classes can be selected, the rest not, even if unlocked) or not. The selectable classes would be chosen by the player of course, but with a few hours of time penalty.

[NapalmEnima]

As I understand things.

1) All classes will be available to all new characters right out of the gate. My shiny new character can immediately spawn as a (very basic) MAX, and go sling some death with whatever the default weapons are.

2) There is no pilot/driver class.

3) Higby has stated that "tanks will be available on day 1".

Some theorize that all vehicles will be just as available as all classes, right out of the gate. I disagree.

Because there is no pilot/driver class, and because PS1 limited vehicle access, I theorize two things. First, vehicle availability is not tied to classes. Second, I believe that "available on day 1" is not the same thing as "all vehicles will be available to freshly created characters".

I suspect that vehicle unlocks will be in one or more trees, and each will need to be purchased/unocked with a relatively large one-time resource cost. I also suspect that someone saving all their resources to unlock the basic MBT will be able to do so after 2-4 hours of play time, time when they're not spending resources on anything else (scopes, shield mods, whatever might be available, we really don't know).

Note that a brand new character won't have much to spend resources on at BR1, though options will become available as you progress in BR. After an hour or two of killin folks, blowin stuff up, and training I suspect you'll have some options that will cost resources to spawn with. Options you'll want... maybe a night-vision scope or an underslung grenade launcher for your rifle.

[Malorn]

Originally Posted by NapalmEnima

I suspect that vehicle unlocks will be in one or more trees, and each will need to be purchased/unocked with a relatively large one-time resource cost.

What makes you suspect this is the case? And what value does such a mechanic provide to the game?

[NapalmEnima]

Originally Posted by Malorn

What makes you suspect this is the case? And what value does such a mechanic provide to the game?

1) Past history. PS1 made you spend cert points to get vehicles. Not all vehicles were available to everyone.

2) Higby said over lunch that some things could be unlocked with a one-time resource cost that might take a couple hours of play to earn.

3) There is no pilot/driver class, so vehicles won't be trainable certs.

4) Higby said "tanks will be available on day 1"... which isn't the same thing as saying "a brand new character can pull a tank". He DID say that all classes are available to everyone immediately.

It's just a suspicion.

[Kalbuth]

Originally Posted by Azren

The info I have says that there is indeed a skill tree, but not just one, several. You get a skill tree for every class. Each character can have every basic class unlocked (maybe by default, maybe by a minimal learning time).

What this thread comes down to is; do you think that the avaiable classes at a given time should be limited for the character (for example 3 classes can be selected, the rest not, even if unlocked) or not. The selectable classes would be chosen by the player of course, but with a few hours of time penalty.

Why should we limit if the class skill tree is de facto going to limit you in what you do with the class?
I see the class limit only putting restriction to what you can do "at the same time, in the same life", nothing more. The per-class tree will work like PS1 system, and on top of it, you'll have upgrades to your skills through time-based training
Did I understood something incorrectly?

[FIREk]

All the new system will do is create even more diversity. Players won't be stuck with vehicles that would be useless on the cont/in the area they are in. So instead of footzerging they will choose a more suitable vehicle - this causes more stuff to happen on the battlefield, instead of either promoting stagnation, or using the same inappropriate vehicle all the time.

The enemy will be able to spawn a good counter against you within 3-5 minutes? Great! That forces you to play faster, better and harder. and not give them the opportunity to retaliate before you've achieved your goal.

[basti]

And here again we have someone who didnt understand the basics of the system, and the basics of games itself.

People dont go pilot because they would have to run in between trees. People go pilot because they like to fly. What that means? Well, you figure it out soon enough, when we have epic epic battles in woods, with crazy pilots above and sometimes even between trees.

[Xyntech]

Originally Posted by basti

with crazy pilots above and sometimes even between trees.

Oh god please put more predictable hit boxes on trees.

[LostSoul]

Be nice for once basti, otherwise i have to start making fun of you

[basti]

Originally Posted by LostSoul

Be nice for once basti, otherwise i have to start making fun of you

YOu already make fun of me always!

Anyway, im just to lazy to write another letter now on the subject, it got explained quite often enough while they went with classes.

But one thing is actually true: If you have the basics of everything, you can counter everything. How that plays out, we have to see. Im assuming getting one big giant tank push still works, but only if well executed. Half assed tank assaults without cover from other things are propably doomed to fail, means we are back to the 1 0 1 of war: Combined arms.

[Talek Krell]

I see no trouble with this. The major change is simply that you can reasonably expect people to have access to whatever equipment is most suitable for the battle they're taking part in. Unless there's an imbalance in the equipment itself that's fine.

[NapalmEnima]

Originally Posted by Talek Krell

I see no trouble with this. The major change is simply that you can reasonably expect people to have access to whatever equipment is most suitable for the battle they're taking part in. Unless there's an imbalance in the equipment itself that's fine.

Wholeheartedly agreed.

I don't think we'll ever see situations where a fully trained Class X will be better than Class Y at class Y's primary role, whatever that might be. However, Class X might be able to get better at doing Y's job, it's just that it'll never be as good at it as class Y is out of the gate... IN GENERAL.

For Example. Heavy Assault will (I hope) never be as good as an untrained AV at AV. Heavy Assault can certainly train/pick gear to make themselves better against vehicles than their default, but a dedicated AV class will always overshadow them at it.

BUT an infiltrator might be a better AV than an AV trooper if it can walk up to an enemy tank and slap a bag of Kaboom on the side.

And some things simply won't apply. I don't think anyone's going to horn in on engineers or medics, for example. At All.