Are sidegrades really gonna be balanced?

Dreamcast · 2012-04-01, 07:58 PM

I like the theory of sidegrades, they sound balanced(give up something to gain something) but will they actually be balanced in reality?

I mean from what I understand if a gun gets more damage then it losses accuracy or vice versa which means it will be balanced....and it basically will just be done to suit somebodies gameplay style.

But the more I think about it...The more I think one of the sidegrades is going to have an edge which will not make it balanced and thus everybody is gonna use that sidegrade.

Owalpo · 2012-04-01, 08:03 PM

There will be times when some come in handy more than others.

For example a shotty vs a sniper. No weapon is more over powered against others, but put them against each other at long range the sniper is better off and vice versa at cqc.

There will be times you wish you had 'enter side grade here' at this very moment because this person has 'enter side grade here'.

Dreamcast · 2012-04-01, 08:16 PM

Originally Posted by Owalpo

There will be times when some come in handy more than others.

For example a shotty vs a sniper. No weapon is more over powered against others, but put them against each other at long range the sniper is better off and vice versa at cqc.

There will be times you wish you had 'enter side grade here' at this very moment because this person has 'enter side grade here'.

That is true but what happens when is the same weapon type.

Example Mid range rifle....If it turns out accuracy>damage then why will people pick accuracy?I guess u can say damage will be best for closer range but then you will have other closer range weapons who will be better than the mid range rifle(either it will be useless or the gun will be very good at a certain range which will be very limited)....I guess a lot of play test is gonna be required to make it balance in the actul battles IMO.

Also can u change sidegrades instantly?........or is it like an rpg like tree where you have to live with ur decision?

Sirisian · 2012-04-01, 08:03 PM

We've had this discussion numerous times already (search the forum for sidegrades). "Sidegrades" is just a nice way to say "upgrades" so as to not scare people that believe combat must be 100% balanced at all times. It's a clever marketing word, try not to think too much about it or you'll start to scare more casual FPS players.

Skitrel · 2012-04-01, 09:36 PM

Originally Posted by Sirisian

We've had this discussion numerous times already (search the forum for sidegrades). "Sidegrades" is just a nice way to say "upgrades" so as to not scare people that believe combat must be 100% balanced at all times. It's a clever marketing word, try not to think too much about it or you'll start to scare more casual FPS players.

I disagree entirely. It's not an upgrade if the change comes with both a positive and a negative change, it's simply a change.

TF2 does sidegrades pretty well.

The point of sidegrades is tailoring your weaponry and other aspects to exactly the kind of playstyle and role you plan on playing. It'll make you much more powerful at performing the precise task you plan to take on but at the expense of many things and a huge decrease in versatility.

Sidegrades narrowing down to extremely specific roles will be very beneficial in large teamwork oriented organised outfit play where many people can back each other by covering the weak areas everyone has, in solo and small groups or as part of the zerg it'll be a burden quite regularly.

Lokster · 2012-04-01, 09:42 PM

Originally Posted by Skitrel

I disagree entirely. It's not an upgrade if the change comes with both a positive and a negative change, it's simply a change.

TF2 does sidegrades pretty well.

The point of sidegrades is tailoring your weaponry and other aspects to exactly the kind of playstyle and role you plan on playing. It'll make you much more powerful at performing the precise task you plan to take on but at the expense of many things and a huge decrease in versatility.

Sidegrades narrowing down to extremely specific roles will be very beneficial in large teamwork oriented organised outfit play where many people can back each other by covering the weak areas everyone has, in solo and small groups or as part of the zerg it'll be a burden quite regularly.

Well said bro. Agree entirely.

Sirisian · 2012-04-01, 10:22 PM

Originally Posted by Skitrel

I disagree entirely. It's not an upgrade if the change comes with both a positive and a negative change, it's simply a change.

That's what I said. "so as to not scare people that believe combat must be 100% balanced at all times". The key words being "at all times". I see it's working though since the word "upgrade" to you already has a connotation of being completely positive. (To be clear it just means an "improvement").

LZachariah · 2012-04-02, 10:09 AM

Originally Posted by Sirisian

We've had this discussion numerous times already (search the forum for sidegrades). "Sidegrades" is just a nice way to say "upgrades" so as to not scare people that believe combat must be 100% balanced at all times. It's a clever marketing word, try not to think too much about it or you'll start to scare more casual FPS players.

Yes, I don't know where you're coming up with this idea, and i DEFINITELY don't know why you're discussing it as if your explanation is some agreed-upon belief. The term "sidegrade" has never been some secret-handshake marketing trick to slip unbalancing upgrades under the radar of players who want a balanced game. Higby has been very explicit in his statements of how the changes being made to our weapons and unlocks will remain balanced.

I feel relieved that a number of posters have already expressed concerns with your post. I don't agree in your account of what a "sidegrade" is, and I think that new forum members could be very misled by it.

~Zachariah

Sirisian · 2012-04-02, 12:29 PM

Originally Posted by LZachariah

Yes, I don't know where you're coming up with this idea, and i DEFINITELY don't know why you're discussing it as if your explanation is some agreed-upon belief. The term "sidegrade" has never been some secret-handshake marketing trick to slip unbalancing upgrades under the radar of players who want a balanced game. Higby has been very explicit in his statements of how the changes being made to our weapons and unlocks will remain balanced.

I never said they were slipping in unbalanced upgrades. I merely pointed out that the word upgrade has harmful connotations in FPS games and that sidegrades allow for situational advantages or upgrades. This was later echoed by others with a different wording.

NCLynx · 2012-04-01, 08:25 PM

Ultimately I feel like there will always be certain side grades that have much more of a gain than a loss. As well as other side grades that no one will use because they essentially make the gun as a whole worse in every aspect.

But none of them will ever be so much greater in power than the vanilla gun, no attachments etc that it will be game breaking (and if it is game breaking I would assume that would be fixed).

StumpyTheOzzie · 2012-04-01, 08:28 PM

Well, the stated overall mission goal is to have a maximum of 20% difference between the biggest baddest sidegradest veteran and a newly spawned n00b. WHEN the devs find out that a weapon + sidegrade combo gives more than their 20% advantage, they'll nerf or buff appropriately.

Hopefully the stats that they will collect will be extensive so that fine tuning every last detail can be made more efficient.

Also, they should be keeping an eye on which sidegrades are the most popular. If anything is an indication of imbalance, it's what is most popular. If everyone is grabbing the same sidegrade, then there's a good reason for it right?

Wanderer · 2012-04-01, 08:48 PM

A lot of sidegrades will be situational options: Potential engagement ranges (short/long), Day and Night play, anti-shield or rate of fire choices. Also personal options, if you are a spray and pray type you may opt for accuracy or a sidegrade that gives you only burst fire to reign you in, but heavier hits. (BF3 pretty much does this)

I am hoping there is no situation where skill will be taken into account when balancing. What I mean is if I find a combo of mods and sidegrades that works really well with the fact I am already accurate and effective, I don't want to see it nerfed because the skilless see it as some kind of extra advantage. In fact I am hoping there is a combo of mods for each weapon that is a little Overpowered in a skilled persons hands and worth working for.

Grognard · 2012-04-01, 10:55 PM

The only thing I am curious about is if the sidegrade attributes are selectable, both good and bad... For instance, assuming you have 3 improvements, and 3 reductions... can you pick them?

As an example:
The first thing I would do is improve the pulsar with less damage reduction at distance, and slower fire rate. I assume this supposedly equates to a "sidegrade" over all. However, with my particular playstyle, I will not see this as a problem, because I will enjoy my extra time lining up that harder hitting shot... and the reduction simply will not effect me. It will, but it wont... if you see my point.

In summary, depending on how they implement this, I think the "math of a sidegrade" will not will not tell the tale, and I am sure they know this... Now keep in mind, I do not know any more than anyone else how this will be implemented. The above is pure speculation, but it illustrates my point that making something easier to use... for a given playstyle, is power, in and of itself.

There are so many playstyles, and so many creative players, and so many variables... well, we just need a good fucking beta... and I hope we are up to the task.

SKYeXile · 2012-04-02, 12:38 AM

Originally Posted by Grognard

The only thing I am curious about is if the sidegrade attributes are selectable, both good and bad... For instance, assuming you have 3 improvements, and 3 reductions... can you pick them?

As an example:
The first thing I would do is improve the pulsar with less damage reduction at distance, and slower fire rate. I assume this supposedly equates to a "sidegrade" over all. However, with my particular playstyle, I will not see this as a problem, because I will enjoy my extra time lining up that harder hitting shot... and the reduction simply will not effect me. It will, but it wont... if you see my point.

In summary, depending on how they implement this, I think the "math of a sidegrade" will not will not tell the tale, and I am sure they know this... Now keep in mind, I do not know any more than anyone else how this will be implemented. The above is pure speculation, but it illustrates my point that making something easier to use... for a given playstyle, is power, in and of itself.

There are so many playstyles, and so many creative players, and so many variables... well, we just need a good fucking beta... and I hope we are up to the task.

im pretty sure each gun will simply be a sidegrade of the original, so theres possibly 4 different versions of the lasher you can pick. but yea i dont think you will be able to customise it much from there other than attachments.

They would be doing it that way to prevent us from making OP/cookie cutter guns.

kaffis · 2012-04-02, 01:10 AM

Grognard, of course even sidegrades are upgrades when they match your playstyle. That's the point, and why you take them.

The reason they're considered balanced and "sidegrades" is that, statistically, the option you didn't take (because it didn't match YOUR playstyle) will fare just as well in the hands of somebody whose playstyle it DOES match.

To use your example, the higher damage drop-off, higher fire rate pulsar will be just as good in the hands of somebody who can line up their shot *faster* than you to keep up with the fire rate, and potentially better when you close distance and the drop-off isn't a factor. Thus, the balance is maintained, so long as you fit that version's playstyle.

Sidegrades are balanced against each other assuming that the user plays to their strengths and weaknesses harmoniously. Obviously, not every user will fit every sidegrade, and that's by design. That's why there are different options, so you can pick the ones that you fit best.