Depth of weapon customization

Memeotis · 2012-07-08, 07:08 AM

Blacklight: Retribution is a game that has recently come to my attention due to one of TB's WTF is... vids. And although the gameplay itself seems very standard and CoD-like, the game does have some very interesting features. The thing that interests me the most about this game, however, is its deep weapon customization system.

The weapon customization on the other hand blew my mind. Admittedly I'm a huge sucker for weapon customization, because it allows me to spend time trying to find the perfect weapon for my playstyle, and the more dials I get to modify, the better.

I've previously complained that Planetside 2 (from what we have seen) only has two slots that modify your weapon's stats, while Blacklight has 6 (and that's without having a slot for foregrip, bipod, grenade-launcher, etc). And this doesn't mean that each category is limited; each category seems to have tens of options. And the way they have achieved this is to give themselves many more stats to juggle with. Aside from just range, damage, stability and rate of fire, they also allow you to change things like movement speed, recoil, and reload speed. And they're all side-grades. In other words: It can be done.

What will make Planetside 2 the most epic FPS ever will be its scale and persistence - there's no doubt about that. But I really having a deep customization will make this game even better, because right now it looks like I'll be choosing between a foregrip, an extended magazine or a silencer - which is really kind of disappointing.

What do you guys think?

zomg · 2012-07-08, 07:18 AM

Having been playing Blacklight, it is indeed a very neat system.

You essentially first pick the gun type (eg. SMG, assault rifle, bolt lock rifle, automatic pistol, etc.), then proceed to pick the main parts of the gun from a variety of options (muzzles/silencers, barrels, scopes, stocks, magazines, weapon camo, and weapon "trinkets" which give various boosts)

It also has a bunch of pre-made guns which are very good as well.

I think it could be a fun feature to have in that customizing things to your liking is something people (including myself) like. I don't know if there would really be much downsides besides the obvious being that it would take longer to develop this system and balance it.

btw feel free to add me in Blacklight if you play on the euro server. My soldiername is zomgzomg

MorioMortis · 2012-07-08, 08:52 AM

The thing is, Blacklight's system makes no sense in a real context; unless all of your weaponry is designed for absolute modularity, and all the different armament manufacturers agree to work on a compatible chassis (extremely unlikely), than you can't get a modular system like that.

Take the real world as an example; how many weapons can change the caliber of their primary barrel without complete redesign? I can think of only a few, and it's mostly between the 5.56 and the 7.62 NATO exclusively (most won't accept the closest Russian equivalent).

The rest of the customization, as in, the scopes, the muzzles and an undebarreled attachment, are pretty much what you have in PS2. Considering they intend to give sidegrades to the weapons themselves (aka, slightly different barrel/receiver/stock? assembly), than you don't really lose any customization, all the while keeping a certain realism (and avoiding the whole weapon cost debacle that happened in BL, where you have to play like 10+ games a day to afford the gear on your back if you don't want to spend a lot of money).

zomg · 2012-07-08, 10:20 AM

Originally Posted by MorioMortis

Take the real world as an example; how many weapons can change the caliber of their primary barrel without complete redesign? I can think of only a few, and it's mostly between the 5.56 and the 7.62 NATO exclusively (most won't accept the closest Russian equivalent).

Well, at least the M16 can be chambered to 9mm or even .50 beowulf...

Originally Posted by MorioMortis

The rest of the customization, as in, the scopes, the muzzles and an undebarreled attachment, are pretty much what you have in PS2. Considering they intend to give sidegrades to the weapons themselves (aka, slightly different barrel/receiver/stock? assembly), than you don't really lose any customization, all the while keeping a certain realism (and avoiding the whole weapon cost debacle that happened in BL, where you have to play like 10+ games a day to afford the gear on your back if you don't want to spend a lot of money).

This is pretty much similar to what I thought. It doesn't necessarily add anything. However, I don't think realism is a particular aspect of this game to begin with.. maybe they have a unified gun platform in the future, and who said anything about the parts having to go with each other to begin with? Maybe you are an elite gunsmith or something

The cost thing is kinda meh in BLR that's for sure. Seems they may have priced the individual parts a bit too high... The premade guns seem ok tho, costs 200 gp for a day and you get 200 from just one match usually.

MorioMortis · 2012-07-08, 11:51 AM

Originally Posted by zomg

Well, at least the M16 can be chambered to 9mm or even .50 beowulf...

The cost thing is kinda meh in BLR that's for sure. Seems they may have priced the individual parts a bit too high... The premade guns seem ok tho, costs 200 gp for a day and you get 200 from just one match usually.

To fire the Beowulf, the entire receiver and barrel was modified, the only thing that remains of the original AR-15 is the profile and the extras.

As for BL, the premades do cost about 1 games worth, but if you want to make your own gun (the most publicized feature), it's ridiculously expensive, and if you also want to grab some better armor, it rapidly exceeds what the average person can do in a day, much less sustainably for long enough to purchase it permanently. I just hope PS2 gives us a "try before you buy" and a reasonably priced permanent purchase option with in-game currency for all weaponry (unlike other F2P FPS's whose pricing schemes are either stupidly high or all over the place, or both).

psimonk · 2012-07-08, 12:38 PM

The more customization the better as far as I'm concerned

The best thing about Blacklight however is they give you the actual numbers behind pretty much every aspect of the gun. I hope PS2 does the same thing instead of some nebulous bar filled up halfway. That's one thing that bugs me about Tribes.

Memeotis · 2012-07-08, 04:48 PM

Originally Posted by MorioMortis

The thing is, Blacklight's system makes no sense in a real context; unless all of your weaponry is designed for absolute modularity, and all the different armament manufacturers agree to work on a compatible chassis (extremely unlikely), than you can't get a modular system like that.

Take the real world as an example; how many weapons can change the caliber of their primary barrel without complete redesign? I can think of only a few, and it's mostly between the 5.56 and the 7.62 NATO exclusively (most won't accept the closest Russian equivalent).

The rest of the customization, as in, the scopes, the muzzles and an undebarreled attachment, are pretty much what you have in PS2. Considering they intend to give sidegrades to the weapons themselves (aka, slightly different barrel/receiver/stock? assembly), than you don't really lose any customization, all the while keeping a certain realism (and avoiding the whole weapon cost debacle that happened in BL, where you have to play like 10+ games a day to afford the gear on your back if you don't want to spend a lot of money).

I'm not saying they should adopt Blacklight's system, just give us more slots to customize. I guess you can compare the Weapon Tag slot in BL to the cert slot in PS2, since it's more of a straight up bonus, but is an opportunity cost rather than an actual trade-off. All the other slots: receiver, muzzle, barrel, magazine, stock are all trade-offs in that they have pros and cons.

But I guess what I'm trying to say is that if they wanted to, they could create enough attachments to turn the single utility slot into 3-6 slots. And I can't see how doing this would in any way harm the game, it seems to me it would only add a lot more progression to it.

Klockan · 2012-07-08, 05:34 PM

Blacklights slots have extremely minor changes, most likely the PS2 slots have way larger effects on the gun.

CutterJohn · 2012-07-08, 05:37 PM

I wouldn't mind another cert slot for weapons/vehicles/infantry armor. 1 is too limiting, imo.

Blacklights system is nifty, but it will not happen for PS2. I absolutely guarantee this. It would take too much time to rework. Of course its also rather absurd.

On an unrelated note, once again, TB stroking his fans senses of entitlement by lambasting p2w, the only way to get the majority of people to actually pay for the service they are provided rather than freeload off the few people willing to be gouged by the insane prices. Just once I'd like to play a F2P game that didn't have $5000 worth of overpriced items for sale in what should be a $50 game, or require you to play for years to unlock it all.. But nope, can't pay for power, which means most people won't bother paying anything. Yay.

Ok, Thats out of my system, carry on.

Otleaz · 2012-07-08, 05:44 PM

Originally Posted by CutterJohn

On an unrelated note, once again, TB stroking his fans senses of entitlement by lambasting p2w, the only way to get the majority of people to actually pay for the service they are provided rather than freeload off the few people willing to be gouged by the insane prices. Just once I'd like to play a F2P game that didn't have $5000 worth of overpriced items for sale in what should be a $50 game, or require you to play for years to unlock it all.. But nope, can't pay for power, which means most people won't bother paying anything. Yay.

Ok, Thats out of my system, carry on.

If you want to win competitive games with your wallet, I suggest you go to your nearest casino.

Littleman · 2012-07-08, 05:49 PM

How a company wins at selling "power" in a free-to-play:

Sell convenience and time commitment. Hence why paying for resources or enhanced cert training speeds or even buying certs outright may just be a reality for PS2's cash shop. People will bitch and moan, but they can get those same certs precisely for $0.00 if they just put in the time to do so.

And frankly, that's how ALL F2P's should handle "selling power."

Keeping cosmetics as a paying customer exclusive is okay though. They're practically trophies good only for showing off.

CutterJohn · 2012-07-08, 05:57 PM

Originally Posted by Otleaz

If you want to win competitive games with your wallet, I suggest you go to your nearest casino.

If you want to play competitive games without any wallet at all, I suggest you get a deck of cards.

I don't want to win. I want others to pay their fair share so that games stop having ridiculous prices on things. Obviously cosmetic items alone are not enough, so they jack up the prices for everyone else to support the freeloaders.

Otleaz · 2012-07-08, 06:51 PM

Originally Posted by CutterJohn

If you want to play competitive games without any wallet at all, I suggest you get a deck of cards.

I don't want to win. I want others to pay their fair share so that games stop having ridiculous prices on things. Obviously cosmetic items alone are not enough, so they jack up the prices for everyone else to support the freeloaders.

I play shooters to pit my ingenuity, skill, and knowledge of the game against other people just like me on even ground. If I beat someone because I paid more money I would feel like I cheated, and I would probably be wondering why I installed the garbage software that takes everything good about shooters and shits on it.

Xyntech · 2012-07-08, 05:57 PM

Just so long as the grind isn't so bad that you have to play for a month just to get one measly unlock. They can get away with making it be pretty grindy to go completely free, but it's gotta be within reason.

With how much there is to unlock in PS2, I'm hoping they strike a nice balance. Hopefully they don't charge too much in the cash shop or make you grind for too ridiculously long just for one stupid scope for your gun.

Originally Posted by CutterJohn

If you want to play competitive games without any wallet at all, I suggest you get a deck of cards.

I don't want to win. I want others to pay their fair share so that games stop having ridiculous prices on things. Obviously cosmetic items alone are not enough, so they jack up the prices for everyone else to support the freeloaders.

I get your sentiment, but F2P isn't just about paying the bills. If you want to play an MMOFPS with a barely existent playerbase, more power to you, but It's all about the high populations for me. I'll put up with a cash shop if it means more players to shoot. That's worth more to me.

I don't feel like I have to buy everything in the cash shop anyways. Just a few things I don't want to wait for, and some cosmetics to help pay for the games bills. Beyond that, I'll just slowly unlock stuff as I play and not worry about it. Eventually I'll have a ton of stuff unlocked on my character, and I'll only have paid for a fraction of it. The real money is just a convenience to get it faster, but do you really need to have access to every single little thing right away? I can understand if it's an OCD thing, but that's just something you've gotta get over for the greater good of high populations. Assuming you want those, which I personally do.

PS2 will never thrive with a subscription. It didn't work well for the first game and it would be 10x worse today.

CutterJohn · 2012-07-08, 06:03 PM

Originally Posted by Xyntech

Just so long as the grind isn't so bad that you have to play for a month just to get one measly unlock. They can get away with making it be pretty grindy to go completely free, but it's gotta be within reason.

With how much there is to unlock in PS2, I'm hoping they strike a nice balance. Hopefully they don't charge too much in the cash shop or make you grind for too ridiculously long just for one stupid scope for your gun.

Yeah. On the other hand, this is an mmo, and if not F2P, there would be a sub, so the assumed amount of money you're paying is going to be higher. I'm personally hoping for an 'Unlock everything!' price for $300ish, which translates to 2 years or so of subs. That would be quite fair, imo.

That or a subscription that unlocks everything while you have it. Either is fine.

Originally Posted by Xyntech

I get your sentiment, but F2P isn't just about paying the bills. If you want to play an MMOFPS with a barely existent playerbase, more power to you, but It's all about the high populations for me. I'll put up with a cash shop if it means more players to shoot. That's worth more to me.

My criticisms were directed at what would have been normal games for sale just a couple years ago. For those I feel F2P is a travesty, since it gives them all the trappings and drawbacks of an mmo, without any of the benefits. For an MMO, its a valid payment model and I don't mind it.

I don't feel like I have to buy everything in the cash shop anyways. Just a few things I don't want to wait for, and some cosmetics to help pay for the games bills. Beyond that, I'll just slowly unlock stuff as I play and not worry about it. Eventually I'll have a ton of stuff unlocked on my character, and I'll only have paid for a fraction of it. The real money is just a convenience to get it faster, but do you really need to have access to every single little thing right away? I can understand if it's an OCD thing, but that's just something you've gotta get over for the greater good of high populations. Assuming you want those, which I personally do.

I'm not a fan of grinds in FPSs. An FPS, to me, is about personal development, not character development. I want access to all the items, so that I, rather than my character, can determine what I use.

Plus, if the grind is as meaningless as you say, whats the harm in letting someone pay a *reasonable* amount of money to unlock at all? Carrot on a stick gameplay is there to keep people playing(and hence paying). They trickle out content so you keep a subscription. There is no subscription anymore, so the carrot on a stick is unnecessary if someone is willing to pay. I just don't want the price to be outrageous as it seems to be in many of these F2P games.