Trying to picture actual tank tactics

[WorldOfForms]

This is not a debate about driver/gunner, etc. This is about trying to imagine how we will drive tanks, considering what we know about them.

The part that has me most confused is how we are going to retreat from combat, as the rear of the tank is the vulnerable part. If I engage a large number of enemies on a relatively stable frontline of combat, what happens when I need to retreat? Won't turning to escape get me killed by exposing my backside? This is assuming I'm not in a magrider.

It seems like the best tactic in a large fight will be to attempt hull-down placement or just peeking out from behind obstacles and then backing up almost as soon as you take fire. The old methods of weaving around and driving off over hills probably won't work anymore.

We'll have to play to see if this is a good or bad thing. Am I missing anything? How do you think tanks will have to position and maneuver considering the low TTK and the vulnerable rear?

[Figment]

http://wiki.worldoftanks.com/Tactics

^ any in the link above not related to stealth or crackpot.

Plus your own.

My personal favourite is flank a group of enemies alone and try turning the hulls of your opponent to your allies. They will be preoccupied with preventing YOU to hit their side and rear and forget about your allies sniping down the road. Meaning they'll try to keep their front pointed at YOU (but you are now where their behinds used to be, with their fronts aimed at you, meaning their behinds are where their fronts used to be). Meaning your allies will then all hit their softer sides, you giggle and drive off (don't forget to giggle!).

[IgloGlass]

Originally Posted by Figment

http://wiki.worldoftanks.com/Tactics

^ any in the link above not related to stealth or crackpot.

Plus your own.

My personal favourite is flank a group of enemies alone and try turning the hulls of your opponent to your allies. They will be preoccupied with preventing YOU to hit their side and rear and forget about your allies sniping down the road. Meaning they'll try to keep their front pointed at YOU (but you are now where their behinds used to be, with their fronts aimed at you, meaning their behinds are where their fronts used to be). Meaning your allies will then all hit their softer sides, you giggle and drive off (don't forget to giggle!).

This I really have to try!

[Baneblade]

We will be compiling a publication on this very subject at some point in the near future.

[Infernalis]

Just like in Battlefield, the TTK isn't so low that you can't have tactics and maneuvers, all the opposite (I mostly talk about the old BF with big maps).

As for retreat if you're somewhere where you can't hide from your opponent quickly you reverse with the front of your armor pointed in the direction of your enemy so you don't take additional damage and you either : remember the map so you don't hit a rock or something, turn the turret so you can navigate and avoid obstacles and/or turn the 3rd person view if there's one.

And you can aim accurately while driving in another direction btw.

[SgtExo]

Reverse until you find some cover or a depression where you can turn and retreat at full speed.

[Khellendros]

Reversing might not be very viable if reverse speeds are similar to PS1, you'd never get anywhere.

[Blackwolf]

Originally Posted by WorldOfForms

This is not a debate about driver/gunner, etc. This is about trying to imagine how we will drive tanks, considering what we know about them.

The part that has me most confused is how we are going to retreat from combat, as the rear of the tank is the vulnerable part. If I engage a large number of enemies on a relatively stable frontline of combat, what happens when I need to retreat? Won't turning to escape get me killed by exposing my backside? This is assuming I'm not in a magrider.

It seems like the best tactic in a large fight will be to attempt hull-down placement or just peeking out from behind obstacles and then backing up almost as soon as you take fire. The old methods of weaving around and driving off over hills probably won't work anymore.

We'll have to play to see if this is a good or bad thing. Am I missing anything? How do you think tanks will have to position and maneuver considering the low TTK and the vulnerable rear?

The rear isn't any more vulnerable then the front. The only real difference is you can't return fire, and if retreat is being considered, returning fire isn't really going to do you any good anyway. Better to focus on maneuvering and forcing your opponent to constantly adjust his aim on the fly while driving through obstacle fields.

With the way PS2 is doing things, the most common tactics for tanks will be stationary artillery points, few shots will be done on the move and that is killing one of the biggest advantages (and the core reason behind the invention) of tanks. Mobile warfare isn't going to be very mobile, unless you are good at what you do.

This means that tanks will be more vulnerable to infantry, which is what they attempted to do with BFRs. The DEVs are aiming for a full circle of rock-paper-scissors but it will inevitably be a triangle with Air Cav being on top (which, coincidentally, is exactly like RL and exactly the way things should be anyway).

As for in-game tactics, you can plot and plan but until we get in the game, there's no real point.

[WorldOfForms]

Originally Posted by Blackwolf

The rear isn't any more vulnerable then the front.

What? The devs have said/shown tons of times that tanks have vulnerable armor in the rear.

[Littleman]

Originally Posted by Blackwolf

The rear isn't any more vulnerable then the front.

Actually, in PS2, it is. You don't want to get hit in the rear.

[RoninOni]

Originally Posted by Blackwolf

The rear isn't any more vulnerable then the front. The only real difference is you can't return fire, and if retreat is being considered, returning fire isn't really going to do you any good anyway. Better to focus on maneuvering and forcing your opponent to constantly adjust his aim on the fly while driving through obstacle fields.

With the way PS2 is doing things, the most common tactics for tanks will be stationary artillery points, few shots will be done on the move and that is killing one of the biggest advantages (and the core reason behind the invention) of tanks. Mobile warfare isn't going to be very mobile, unless you are good at what you do.

This means that tanks will be more vulnerable to infantry, which is what they attempted to do with BFRs. The DEVs are aiming for a full circle of rock-paper-scissors but it will inevitably be a triangle with Air Cav being on top (which, coincidentally, is exactly like RL and exactly the way things should be anyway).

As for in-game tactics, you can plot and plan but until we get in the game, there's no real point.

?? I think you need a refresher

PS2 does indeed sport locational damage on tanks. Rear hits will cause more damage then side, which cause more damage than front. Hopefully they also factor in angle of hit as direct hits should hit harder than glancing

Secondly... you can turn your turret independent of tank direction (unless your Vanu in which case you can strafe whatever direction you need while facing target) so you very much can retreat driving backwards to protect your weakspot and have your turret either facing the direction you're traveling so you don't hit obstacles and swivel around towards the front of the tank to fire at people chasing you

[WorldOfForms]

I don't see how a blitzkrieg could work. Here's what I see: you smash through the front line, and then your weak rear armor is now exposed to the line you just smashed through, assuming you didn't kill everything in that front line.

But let's say you did kill everything. Now what? You're at close range with enemies at the new the front line. You'll be slaughtered unless you retreat. But if you retreat... there's that exposed rear again.

That's why I'm saying that the PS1 tank driving, where you approach the front line, take shots on the move, and then circle back toward your own troops won't work. The moment you circle back, you're hosed, unless you can perfectly position yourself to always be near cover the moment you turn around.

People keep bringing up mobile tactics from PS1, but I'm just not seeing how it's viable. Tanks in PS2 die super fast, even when shot in the front, let alone the rear.

I don't see how we're going to do anything other than: hug cover, creep forward, take potshots, reverse back behind cover.

Tanks take 6-7 shots from AV or other tanks, on their front armor right now, correct? Picture a battlefield of hundreds of troops. All it will take is 6-7 units to focus fire on you and you will die literally instantly.

[SgtExo]

Originally Posted by WorldOfForms

I don't see how a blitzkrieg could work. Here's what I see: you smash through the front line, and then your weak rear armor is now exposed to the line you just smashed through, assuming you didn't kill everything in that front line.

But let's say you did kill everything. Now what? You're at close range with enemies at the new the front line. You'll be slaughtered unless you retreat. But if you retreat... there's that exposed rear again.

That's why I'm saying that the PS1 tank driving, where you approach the front line, take shots on the move, and then circle back toward your own troops won't work. The moment you circle back, you're hosed, unless you can perfectly position yourself to always be near cover the moment you turn around.

People keep bringing up mobile tactics from PS1, but I'm just not seeing how it's viable. Tanks in PS2 die super fast, even when shot in the front, let alone the rear.

I don't see how we're going to do anything other than: hug cover, creep forward, take potshots, reverse back behind cover.

Tanks take 6-7 shots from AV or other tanks, on their front armor right now, correct? Picture a battlefield of hundreds of troops. All it will take is 6-7 units to focus fire on you and you will die literally instantly.

I don't think you understand what a blitzkrieg is by the look of it. A blitzkrieg is about concentrating your shock troops in a location and punching a hole in the enemies front lines. Then you have your fast moving units take advantage of that hole in the front line to rush in and aggressively push inside the enemies lines.

If you think of it, a MAX crash is a blitzkrieg when followed up by more mobile and versatile units. So if a base has a stable defense outside the base, you role in with your platoon of tanks, punch a whole clear for the infantry/sundies/galaxies to get all those infantry inside the base and capture it. And seeing how much more open the bases are and the fluidity of the combat, I do believe that blitzkrieg tactics will be very prevalent for organized outfits.

[WorldOfForms]

Originally Posted by SgtExo

I don't think you understand what a blitzkrieg is by the look of it. A blitzkrieg is about concentrating your shock troops in a location and punching a hole in the enemies front lines. Then you have your fast moving units take advantage of that hole in the front line to rush in and aggressively push inside the enemies lines.

If you think of it, a MAX crash is a blitzkrieg when followed up by more mobile and versatile units. So if a base has a stable defense outside the base, you role in with your platoon of tanks, punch a whole clear for the infantry/sundies/galaxies to get all those infantry inside the base and capture it. And seeing how much more open the bases are and the fluidity of the combat, I do believe that blitzkrieg tactics will be very prevalent for organized outfits.

That's basically what I was describing. So you punch through the line with your tanks, and then you have enemies behind you. They shoot your rear, you die.

With tanks being as vulnerable as they are, the enemy doesn't even have to shoot your rear. How are you going to punch through a line when enemy AV can kill you almost instantly?

Did you play PS1? A Vanguard took forty AV shots to kill, and even then in a heated battle they could die almost instantly because of so much lead flying through the air. Tanks that take 6-7 shots will be obliterated before they get anywhere near the line to punch through.

I don't think anyone is really considering what will happen when the armies are scaled up. Tanks are going to get hosed immediately out in the open unless the devs increase their armor dramatically.

[SixShooter]

Originally Posted by WorldOfForms

I don't see how we're going to do anything other than: hug cover, creep forward, take potshots, reverse back behind cover.

Tanks take 6-7 shots from AV or other tanks, on their front armor right now, correct? Picture a battlefield of hundreds of troops. All it will take is 6-7 units to focus fire on you and you will die literally instantly.

I don't see hiding as being a very reliable (or fun) tactic. What your talking about is making yourself a stationary target for oppsing MBTs, air to ground missles and infantry with c4. Regardless of locational damage, it's still harder to hit a moving target than it is to hit a stationary one and if you're beating a retreat you're still going to want to use the environment to your advantage.

There are more open areas that are perfect for large tank battles that were not shown in the E3 vids and tactics are going to be determined by the layout of the battlegrounds.

As far as low TTK for MBTs go, I really hope that tanks get a bit more solid and strudy through beta testing, just a bit