Don't Nerf Magriders Buff Prowler and Vanguard

grimey · 2013-01-27, 11:29 PM

First off I DO NOT drive a Magrider I drive a Prowler.

Magriders according to Devs are working as designed and their straffing agility is not going to get nerfed.

They did mention nerfing their front armor or at least the front armor defensive upgrade, and this should not be done here's why.

Yes it is easier for a magrider to keep his front armor where he is aiming but as has been pointed out already the lack of a turret also means that they need to turn around completely to face someone attacking their rear so its a completely balanced trade off IMHO.

This also is balanced because people who choose to get front armor as their defensive option lose out on other abilities like stealth, side armor, top armor, ect. so I believe this is balanced as well.

The Devs also talked about buffing the Vanguards shells velocity and I think this is a great step towards making landing shots at distance against magriders a lot easier and everything else for that matter. PLEASE give this buff to the prowler as well.

A lot of people consider the prowler the worst MBT of the three when it comes to MBT vs MBT because you have to land 2 shots to do the same damage however having the 2 shots also makes the prowler the best at killing Infantry.

There was also a proposed buff to prowler's HEAT and AP damage. I don't think this is necessary and instead offer this as an alternative instead and a solution to the recoil between the two shots making hitting ranged targets easier.

Allow the prowler to fire BOTH cannons at the same time.

This could be done simply by allowing a weapon fire switch that by default is the b button that switches you between full auto, burst, single shot with guns now makes the prowler able to be single shot to kill more infantry or a double shot to hit tanks easier with both shots.

A more complex way to accomplish this would be to make the right and left cannons seperate in the same way that max arms are seperate so right cannon is right click and left cannon is left click.

This would be more natural use of the cannon and would even possibly allow the mixing of cannons which could be interesting. Arm yourself with one AP and one HE cannon would be pretty sweet.

The only problem with the second option is where do you put the optics button which I would gladly move to my thumb button or even a keyboard button for that kind of gameplay.

There is also the problem of the change in the certs and changing the cannon options for buying but if this is a problem then just leave them as paired AP, HEAT, or HE only cannons but please keep the seperately opperating cannons.

Right now most people consider the prowler's unique lock down ability to be the worst of the 3 but if you give us this unique trait I think it would make it an even more badass tank that would have the flexibilty to take on infantry and tanks as well in an interesting way.

Neutral Calypso · 2013-01-27, 11:57 PM

My name is Neutralysis, and I approve this message.

typhaon · 2013-01-28, 12:15 AM

Don't want to rain on the Prowler pity parade, but I think Higby said yesterday (in the AT stream) that Prowlers were performing almost exactly where they wanted(I think he implied a smidge below Magriders)... it was Vanguards that were in need of some help.

I also didn't interpret comments about the Magrider to mean SOE would never nerf it... just that strafing would remain a part of the package... doesn't mean strafing speed might not be changed.

Rothnang · 2013-01-28, 01:12 AM

I personally think Vanguards are pretty damn powerful because they have the shield that grants them pretty much an automatic win in a close range fight with another tank.

The Enforcer could use a buff to give it a bigger blast radius.

Micro · 2013-01-28, 01:23 AM

I don't think the Vanguard really needs any buff, but the Prowler needs some love.
I myself drive a Mag, and agility is what it is all about! That makes it unique! Not overpowered! It might seems overpowered, because it cannot rotate it's gun, and therefore Mag-Drivers automatically turn their back (the weakest armor is there) away.

grimey · 2013-01-28, 02:18 AM

As other people have pointed out the other 2 factions have special abilities that make them OP in their own way and unique with the Vanguard shield, and the agility of the Magrider

And the prowler has 2 guns...

They do the same damage as one shot from the other tanks so this could or could not be a good thing I have to hit twice to do the same damage but a miss is not as big of a deal for me as well.

The part that sucks is the recoil between shots makes this reaiming takes too much time and this is magnified the further the range which is why as a prowler i prefere to engage as closely as I can along with the fact I have a vulcan.

The fact that the prowler has 2 cannons is a very unique trait for a tank I mean seriously how many tanks have you heard of having 2 main turret guns, but the way they are implemented is not very unique because its now like having just an extra round to shoot before reloading.

Make it like a Max so I can shoot both at the same time or one after the other and it would really be something cool and unique about the prowler.

The current possible buff the prowler will possibly get is an increase to HEAT and AP rounds which would make my HEAT shots even more hell for the infantry which this nerf mag/ buff prowler debate is about MBT vs MBT not MBT vs Infantry.

While a buff to damage would help out the prowler you could keep the damage where it is and if you can double fire that would increase the DPS to tanks because you would not have the half a second between shots and the recoil between shots anymore.

This would not really effect the dps for infantry much In fact in double fire you would lose Killing power for infantry because a single shell is enough to kill one so you would be using twice the shots for the same damage.

This double fire option is also balanced by the fact that when you put both your eggs in one basket a miss sucks even more on the other hand a hit is even better which adds a great level of risk reward as well.

grimey · 2013-01-28, 02:28 AM

No I am not trolling about the magrider not having a turret.

There are situations where not having a turret is bad

Prowler---------------------------Prowler

----------------Magrider

In a flanking position as you see in order for the magrider to engage either prowler he needs to turn his body towards one which exposes his side and rear armor to the other one.

A prowler or vanguard could simply back up while targeting one and keep his front armor facing both. Also as a prowler if there are infantry that get behind me all I have to do is turn my turret around real quick and kill them and keep my front armor facing the majority of the threats.

My turret can rotate faster then a Magrider can turn and if they were to turn around to kill the single infantry that is behind them they would leave their rear open to attacks hitting them in the front which makes the Magrider the tank that requires a second gunner more then the others.

Mordelicius · 2013-01-28, 03:41 AM

Magriders win easy because they can hit easy and they can't be hit easily. That's it.

They have all the advantages.

They can snipe easy mode long range with perfect accuracy.
They can't be hit long range with stupendous mobility.

The Vanu can't have the best of everything. They have to pick one or get one. So there are two choices the Devs can do: Hit their ability to survive or ability to kill:

1) Lower their suvivability

Keep the turn rate which is very fast, but nerf the strafe rate by 75%.
Heavy assaults dumbfire Vanguard and Prowlers with ease.
AV turrets in bases do the same, with ease.

Worthless "buffs" on tanks arent' enough. There are so much more factors. Tank vs Heavy Assault Dumb-fire. Tank vs Anti-Vehicle base turret. The reason why the Vanu easily captures a base is their Tank (and I use that word loosely because its a Tank/Artillery/Sniper platform), take out the turrets long range while it helplessly tries to hit back. By the time the projectile is even halfway, the magrider has already moved and firing back.

Against infantry, these magriders can avoid dumb-fire rockets like nothing. They move in any direction. Making a straight-line shot is not just going to hit. I'm a great shot with the Shrike and Mags just laugh it off in medium to long range. Even in short range, they can magically pull off a twisting fish move. That stuff cannot be done with a Vanguard or a Prowler.

If they aren't going hit the strafe rate. Make all sides vulnerable like the backsides AND lower their HP by 25%. In addition, give them 50% less resistance to small arms fire.

OR

2) Lower their DPS significantly.

Lower their damage by 25%. Then, Double or Triple their damage dropoff rate depending on the curve. Halve their damage to Base turrets. Lastly, Halve their damage to Infantry.

The same type of players who defended the Liberators and ESFs are now defending the Magriders. They are the best in long range DPS and survivability by a mile. That's what matters here. In medium and short, they still have the advantages, although not as much long ranged ones.

All Magriders have to do is find a hill or a small rock. Poke out their turret while strafing and fire with tremendous accuracy! Can a Tank, Heavy Assault or a Anti-Tank turret have the time or reflex to hit back at such small window?

Even in an open field, they can move in 8 directions. A Tank/HA/Turret will have to guess the acceleration/speed and direction of the Mag + the dropoff of their projectiles in realtime. Take into account the, range, then travel speed of the projectiles and the responsiveness of the Mag and you got yourself an easy win joke for the Vanu.

Even will all the Liberator and ESF nerfs and AA buffs they are still strong and capable. Magriders need a massive nerf soon. Why don't players complain about Vanguards and Prowlers incessantly? It's because they are easy to destroy. Magriders are difficult to destroy while they kill with little effort. They can't have the best of both worlds. This game need balanced factions so the population and not get destroyed by all the continent, faction and server migrations.

thegreekboy · 2013-01-28, 07:37 PM

Originally Posted by Micro

I don't think the Vanguard really needs any buff, but the Prowler needs some love.
I myself drive a Mag, and agility is what it is all about! That makes it unique! Not overpowered! It might seems overpowered, because it cannot rotate it's gun, and therefore Mag-Drivers automatically turn their back (the weakest armor is there) away.

Well theres also that thing where the difference in armor between the tanks is negligible, yet you can also dodge every shot of ours past 100m

Mietz · 2013-01-28, 10:19 PM

Originally Posted by thegreekboy

Well theres also that thing where the difference in armor between the tanks is negligible, yet you can also dodge every shot of ours past 100m

Theres also that thing that a I can mine mags in the rear consistently.

I've taken out whole tank-columns that way, especially at the Crossroads hill where they will just strafe forward-backwards.

Hotdrop with engineer/HA from ESF, the first 2 mags are free kills, if their friends notice, they will likely win, but most of the time they don't get it that the Mag next to them exploded not from Crown shelling but a mine.

grimey · 2013-01-29, 12:51 AM

Yes the Prowler has the most DPS if you can land both shots as it does about half the damage of a vanguard per shot meanwhile the vanguard has a 4 second reload and the prowler has a 2.5 second reload AND it has a .5 second delay between shots and lets not forget about having to reaim meanwhile all a vanguard or mag has to do is reaim while their tank is reloading.

If the Devs wanted they could increase the reload speed when in double fire mode to balance this out and make it take 3 seconds to reload and it would be the same fire rate.

And if these changes made it so after someone dumps almost 2k certs into anchor to get 48% reload speed and becomes a powerful stationary turret then maybe our unique ability would actually be worth getting instead of being some sort of situational waste of a utility slot that it currently is.

How many Vanguards get shield probably most of them I know if I was running one thats what I would get.

How many Magriders use magburner there's a ton of those too.

How many Prowlers get lock down?? like maybe 10% and its because it sucks and is very situational and completely negates the bonus of having the fastest tank by making it stay still.

Vanguard shield builds even more on its strength of having the best frontal armor and the magburner ands even more acceleration to their agility and lets them get into places other tanks can't reach.

Right now the devs are going to buff both the vanguard and the prowler and from what they have suggested they are going to increase the velocity of the vanguard and increase the damage of the prowler so now if I can land both shots ill be out DPSing even more if 2 prowler shots = 110% of one vanguard shell. And this is if they only buff the damage by 10%.

If they give double shot to prowler and slow down reload speed and keep the prowlers velocity and give the velocity buff to vanguard then the prowler will still out dps because the reload speed would be slightly faster and would hit as hard but the vanguard would have better damage at further ranges from the velocity making those far shots easier to make especially on mags.

almalino · 2013-01-28, 02:07 AM

Originally Posted by grimey

the lack of a turret also means that they need to turn around completely to face someone attacking their rear so its a completely balanced trade off IMHO.

Are you trolling? Right?

Magrider need to turn the body and Vanguard needs to turn the turret for that. What is the difference in turning the turret and the body especially when Magrider body is floating and easily rotated?

Also, Magrider by turning the body face the strong front to the attacker. Profit!

IMHO, Magraqider is a big floating turret that can strafe and must be nerfed. Or other must be buffed somehow.

Badjuju · 2013-01-28, 03:35 PM

Originally Posted by almalino

Are you trolling? Right?

Magrider need to turn the body and Vanguard needs to turn the turret for that. What is the difference in turning the turret and the body especially when Magrider body is floating and easily rotated?

Also, Magrider by turning the body face the strong front to the attacker. Profit!

IMHO, Magraqider is a big floating turret that can strafe and must be nerfed. Or other must be buffed somehow.

There are trade offs. With a rotating turret you can control which direction your ass faces while attacking. This is particularly important if you are getting flanked from both sides. To shoot at guys to your right you have to expose your ass to the guys on your left.

Personally I would take the Vanguard any day. You have to play smarter with it as it isn't as forgiving but the elevated+rotating turret pays off IMO. Not to mention lots of armor and high damage. I would like to see the projectile speed increased however. That is it's biggest weakness currently. Well that and people think they can play rambo in it, charging ahead of infantry. I think this causes the biggest miss-conception over the Mag. It's agility makes it very forgiving when you over extend in a game where many people don't play smart and over extend every time they get in a vehicle. I am not saying tweeks are not in order, however I don't believe it is as imbalanced as people make it out to be. I would say increase the projectile speed of the Vanguard. If not that then slightly reduce the damage the mag does as Ubi (sorry cant remember name) suggested.

Baneblade · 2013-01-28, 05:47 PM

Originally Posted by Sunrock

Hehehehe... With a bit of more practice you can.

Not if he keeps outrunning the projectile

Originally Posted by almalino

That would be OP. And, actually you already can do this is Flash driver will stop to scratch his back and to repair his Flash. Though, not 100% guaranteed hit if Flash driver do all this fast

See, this guy got it.

I'd say double the projectile velocity, maybe even add a push back to compensate (even from broadside firing tanks).

Sunrock · 2013-01-28, 04:33 AM

The only thing I would like to see they do to the prowler is to make the recoil reset to the exact position it was in when the fire was triggered and it would be an über tank as you would actually have real use for the anchor mode then. With the anchor mode you could then turn the prowler into a artillery piece.

However the prowler is exelent for close quarter tank Vs tank action. A magrider have no chance in hell against a prowler if you manage to get within 10 meters of the maggy. And if you drive the prowler into the side of the magrider so you half lift it up it can't turn at all and you just blast it to hell.