Engineer Mine nerf????

CraazyCanuck · 2013-01-29, 09:04 AM

Got on this morning to check things out briefly, and in one engagement I was attempting to mine a base for an incoming TR armor convoy and when I went out to add my C4 bricks to the AV placements, the AV placements were gone with the enemy still at the next base and no one, friendly or enemy in sight and no explosions sounds to accompany their destruction if someone had triggered them.

So anyone else notice this? Did SOE nerf the engineer? If so I just wasted considerable certs specing out my mining tree. And no its not OP. Just making it easier for vehicles to have their way of things by limiting counters. The mines and usuage there of were paid heavily for both in certs and with resources. So I hope it was just a glitch.

Anyone else can confirm?

Figment · 2013-01-29, 09:35 AM

Anti-tank mines are OP.

Cert points expenses don't justify crap design and they don't cost any resources worth of note, stop kidding yourself because you like being OP against another poorly designed unit that's also OP in specific ways.

Gatekeeper · 2013-01-29, 09:51 AM

I'd agree that anti-tank mines seem overpowered currently, one-shotting a tank is really OTT.

2-3 mines killing a tank would be fine, so long as they can't be grouped too closely together - there should be some chance to brake or swerve after hitting the first mine and so avoid death. If that means allowing Engis to carry more mines to compensate, then that's fine by me.

CraazyCanuck · 2013-01-29, 09:58 AM

Not sure what mines you guys are using but bare minimum, takes two to kill an undamaged tank. 3 or more if they have mineguard.

So no they aren't OP. And work as intended. If 1 mine killed an undamaged prowler then I would agree.

KodanBlack · 2013-01-30, 03:13 PM

Originally Posted by Gatekeeper

I'd agree that anti-tank mines seem overpowered currently, one-shotting a tank is really OTT.

2-3 mines killing a tank would be fine, so long as they can't be grouped too closely together - there should be some chance to brake or swerve after hitting the first mine and so avoid death. If that means allowing Engis to carry more mines to compensate, then that's fine by me.

Now, I play Engineer, and I REALLY like the idea of giving a decrease in single mine damage, while giving an increase in the number carried. It would do two things, allow a vehicle driver to stop, or alter course, and allow for an engineer to place a small mine field at a key location to force the enemy to react to your strategy.

That would make for a much better game, in my opinion. Strategy and tactics would be increased in employing this idea. On both sides.

And, for any other engineers who don't like this idea, I leave you with this. Any vehicle operator who chose to ignore the first hit would still certainly die pressing the advance. Also, an engineer could begin to control the flow of a battle through the use of fortification style defences, which is at the core of combat engineering. Causing a line of tanks to stop or alter course to deal with your mine field would be epic.

NewSith · 2013-01-29, 10:11 AM

Anti-tank mines are UP... Nerf the mine guard!

See what I did there?

Figment · 2013-01-29, 10:16 AM

Yes they are OP craazycanuck.

If you think being able to throw MINES rapidly from a roof is not OP for an insta-kill just because you have to throw two (OMG THE EPIC WORK INVOLVED IN PLACING THEM), then you're utterly delusional.

They may as well not require two, because it doesn't actually matter right now if it's one or two: you get no warning, you can't do anything to stop it, you can't drive away and the death is instant.

They're horribly OP. In fact, C4 is. Trust me on that, I use it constantly. I actually had to work in PS1 to blow up a vehicle with mines or boomers and take my time and be careful about it.

In PS2? just get within close range spam two things, press button - oh wait that's C4. Get within spitting distance, click twice, kill a tank. THAT is the current mines. Utterly OP placement speed, power and proximity and utterly OP deployment methodology.

I must say you have really low standards. As in I can't see you having standards, at all. 1 is OP but 2 is not? That's simply being arbitrary, not having standards.

Working as intended? If this is intended, then the devs are even worse than you'd think from mere observation of poor implementations, which can be considered oversights and inexperience at present. If it's intended, they should just be sacked.

Oh and uhm, C4 cost more resources and tend to do less damage since nobody uses mineguards. C4 is IMO OP at present. Like pretty much everything else though.

Gatekeeper · 2013-01-29, 10:29 AM

Frankly I didn't even know how many mines it took to kill a tank, or how they were placed - since I've never used them. All I know is that, as a tank driver, you sometimes die instantly from full health to mines that you had no warning about. Which, as Figment says, is clearly overpowered.

Calisai · 2013-01-29, 10:44 AM

Personally, As a tank driver and an Engineer... I would rather have 3-9 mines to place and require 3 mines to kill a tank, then the 1-3 mines and near-instakill we have now.

It's real hard to setup a defensive perimeter and hope to stop any kind of advance with 1 or 2 mines. Oh, and being able to throw a mine off a tower and have it work is a little OP. Mines are meant to be placed prior to battle and lie in wait. Not be a poor-mans C4.

I miss the PS1 days of being able to setup an actual mine field, even though a good tank driver could stop if his reactions were good enough... it still killed a lot of vehicles moving at full speed. (Of course, I would also need to be able to see my mines on the map then... this having to remember where all the mines are, and not know whether they are still up or not is annoying)

Bloodlet · 2013-01-29, 11:01 AM

Mines are not OP. Get mineguard and learn to play.

Edit: I think it's funny how people can complain about mines "one" shotting their tank when their tank can also actually one shot that engineer assuming the tanker has situational awareness.

Merzun · 2013-01-29, 11:02 AM

I liked the mine mechanics in PS1 but in using a similar approach for PS2 mined would have to be much much cheaper. As an almost pure infantry player of multiple classes I am already run dry in ressources as it is now. Also one has to question if anyone would bother certing mineguard when you simply can take multiple hits or just come to a stop and repair up or if mineguard would simply become an useless cert.

In my opinion this is a two edged sword. I really like the possibility of having laid out minefields and shutting of attack paths. On the other hand everything in this game is very deadly and so should be mines otherwise they would be underpowered.

JesNC · 2013-01-29, 11:12 AM

Originally Posted by Calisai

Personally, As a tank driver and an Engineer... I would rather have 3-9 mines to place and require 3 mines to kill a tank, then the 1-3 mines and near-instakill we have now.

It's real hard to setup a defensive perimeter and hope to stop any kind of advance with 1 or 2 mines. Oh, and being able to throw a mine off a tower and have it work is a little OP. Mines are meant to be placed prior to battle and lie in wait. Not be a poor-mans C4.

I miss the PS1 days of being able to setup an actual mine field, even though a good tank driver could stop if his reactions were good enough... it still killed a lot of vehicles moving at full speed. (Of course, I would also need to be able to see my mines on the map then... this having to remember where all the mines are, and not know whether they are still up or not is annoying)

This exactly! And we should continue to bring this up until they rework the Engineer class and CE.

But until then, I'll continue to use my two death frisbees to punish unattentive drivers.

Chaff · 2013-01-29, 11:01 AM

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I agree that C4 & Tank mines are OP. I primarily play Engie over any other role, so I should be motivated to vote "for" them. In no circumstance should an Engie be able to "throw" or drop a mine for any insta kill. Put a 30 second timer on a mine throw/drop.

Cheap kills will be exploited if they're left there in the game. Cheap kills suck. PS2 needs to be quicker to correct these sorts of mistakes/oversights.

This is a case where PS1 mechanics were better (IMO). I also think an Engie should have the ability to lay far more mines, but it should take at least 3-4 mines to kill a healthy MBT. I liked it better that way in PS1.
A Sundy should require 1 or 2 more mines than a MBT to kill. 1 mine should kill a Flash (unless it has the mine sweeper cert & is driving at min speed). 2 Mines for a Lightning kill.

They could make a better emersion with the whole mine thing. It takes a few Engines 5 minutes to mine an entire bridge. It should take an equal effort in time to un-mine a bridge. AT least a full clip or two from your rifle to defeat a single mine.

Add a feature only the Flash gets. The Flash would have to drive at its lowest speed & make two passes ea direction to safely detonate/eliminate a heavily mined bridge.

When you're out laying a mine field - you are exposed to risk. Forcing a Flash to putt up and back a few times returns the favor. It also helps give purpose to those oddballs that may like a vehicle like the Flash. Give it more purpose than just transport a Sniper/INF somehwere out in BFE. Also, allowing a good old gun & foot soldier to shoot them is a nice balance. If we had AP rounds - those would kill a mine quicker than standard rounds. To un-mine a whole bridge full of mines should require one soldier to reload his ammo....in order to do it himself at significant risk (potential) and a significant time loss.

This way, the original Engies that laid out the giant mine field get the benefit of delaying the enemy - even if no vehicles of sofites were harmed.

The deeper the roles - the deeper the emersion. The better balance, measures, and counter measures the better the gameplay is. This game is in early Beta, and needs a lot of improving & tweaking.
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CraazyCanuck · 2013-01-29, 12:20 PM

Originally Posted by Chaff

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*snip*

I lost my post due to time restraints and posting, Doesn't keep me logged in currently where I am. Hamma you need to allow for a post to be automatically posted in once a person relogs without lost of their text. But back on topic. I'm not familiar with PS1 but what I had brought up in the lost post runs parallel with what Chaff has stated. I think he's spot on or the PS1 system was/is dramatically better then the generalized one used now in PS2.

Figment, this has nothing to do with my standards and your being a bit presumptious assuming you know mine. OP was not about mines/c4 being op Its about the possibility of a fundamental change to the utility of those engineers that have invested considerable certs into mines/explosives.

Its not the fact that mines/c4 destructive capability are overpowered. They're explosives for shit sakes. Compare mines to the destructive capability of rockets. They should be more powerful then the rocket but its as Chaff stated, and I think what Figment is also trying to get across. Poor implementation of explosives in this game. They've dumbed them down and generalized their usuage to the point they are an improved grenade. A deployment/arming timer is definitely needed in this game. whole explosive system needs an overhaul really. As its stands right now, it's clumsy. A counter similar to the one used for overloading/stabilizing generators would improve things.

Specialization in explosives with more detailed tree to both use or counter would be huge improvement. As the user increases their proficiency, the time need to deploy them would decrease as well as the ability to carry more. Engineers would also have their explosive versatility improved. The utility belt needs an overhaul as well. Should allow more of the same type to be carried, or 1 or more of a different type to also be carried, the exact number dependent upon rank if the current restraints on capacity are kept.

Minesweeper tree for the flash or this new buggee they've talked about would fill anti-mine role nicely.

Whiteagle · 2013-01-29, 10:53 PM

Originally Posted by Chaff

.
I agree that C4 & Tank mines are OP. I primarily play Engie over any other role, so I should be motivated to vote "for" them. In no circumstance should an Engie be able to "throw" or drop a mine for any insta kill. Put a 30 second timer on a mine throw/drop.

Cheap kills will be exploited if they're left there in the game. Cheap kills suck. PS2 needs to be quicker to correct these sorts of mistakes/oversights.

This is a case where PS1 mechanics were better (IMO). I also think an Engie should have the ability to lay far more mines, but it should take at least 3-4 mines to kill a healthy MBT. I liked it better that way in PS1.
A Sundy should require 1 or 2 more mines than a MBT to kill. 1 mine should kill a Flash (unless it has the mine sweeper cert & is driving at min speed). 2 Mines for a Lightning kill.

They could make a better emersion with the whole mine thing. It takes a few Engines 5 minutes to mine an entire bridge. It should take an equal effort in time to un-mine a bridge. AT least a full clip or two from your rifle to defeat a single mine.

Add a feature only the Flash gets. The Flash would have to drive at its lowest speed & make two passes ea direction to safely detonate/eliminate a heavily mined bridge.

When you're out laying a mine field - you are exposed to risk. Forcing a Flash to putt up and back a few times returns the favor. It also helps give purpose to those oddballs that may like a vehicle like the Flash. Give it more purpose than just transport a Sniper/INF somehwere out in BFE. Also, allowing a good old gun & foot soldier to shoot them is a nice balance. If we had AP rounds - those would kill a mine quicker than standard rounds. To un-mine a whole bridge full of mines should require one soldier to reload his ammo....in order to do it himself at significant risk (potential) and a significant time loss.

This way, the original Engies that laid out the giant mine field get the benefit of delaying the enemy - even if no vehicles of sofites were harmed.

The deeper the roles - the deeper the emersion. The better balance, measures, and counter measures the better the gameplay is. This game is in early Beta, and needs a lot of improving & tweaking.
.

While I don't share your opinion that C4 and Tank Mines are overpowered, I do agree that Tank mines should:

Do less damage
Cost less
Be able to be carried in far greater numbers
Require a small amount of time to pass before they become active

Originally Posted by LoliLoveFart

Tank mines damage is fine, the ability to run up to an enemy vehicle click twice and run away before it dies is OP.

Mines should be pre emptive not a "Oh there is an enemy sundy i am going to rambo off this tower and neuter their attack". As it stands you can drop 2 mines on a sunderer before you can be killed and that is a bit much.

If tank mines required a vehicle to move over the top of them instead of a proximity detonation suicide bombing sundies would not happen, well you could drop them and shoot them but that will kill you and takes a lot longer.

Yeah this is probably where most of the drama comes from...

I mean, they've never let us actually lay mine FIELDS, just TWO proximity explosives that gravely injure a tank.
Since you ONLY get TWO, you pretty much have to set them right on TOP of whatever it is you want to damage, and they then have to DO ENOUGH DAMAGE to make that worth while.
It's circular logic!

Be glad if you aren't TR at least, then you aren't saddled with CLAYNONES as well...

Originally Posted by DirtyBird

Dies, yes.
Leave the game, doubt it. But you can check easily enough.

No, I believe they've fixed it so that they'll disappear a set amount of time after you stop being an Engineer, ether through changing class or logging out...