Mobile Spawning Redesign.

Rothnang · 2013-02-21, 03:19 AM

Sunderers can no longer be deployed inside or directly around enemy bases. The restriction on deploying multiple Sunderers next to each other is lifted however.

Spawn Beacons still exist, but are no longer a straight up respawn option, but just create an instant-action location for your squad members.

The new Light Armored Cars serve as the front-line spawn units, you can revive in an LAC if you died within 50 meters of it, so they can't simply be hidden away somewhere, you actually need a player inside who keeps pace with the infantry and fights alongside them. You only revive when you spawn on an LAC, you can't change your class in one.
LACs would have a special feature that stops them from instantly exploding after having been reduced to zero hitpoints, instead they would break down and turn into a burning wreck that doesn't take any further damage, and can be turned back into a functioning vehicle if it is repaired in time (Maybe 10 seconds). Occupants of the vehicle are forced outside when it becomes a wreck.
In order to kill an LAC/Infantry team you would have to take out both of them, not just one and watch the other fold. This encourages both the Infantry to stick with their vehicle, and the vehicle to stick with the infantry.

Galaxies become the squad spawning option, and members of the Galaxies squad can always spawn inside of the aircraft. This requires the Galaxy to actually fly to where the squad wants to be deployed. The old issue of Galaxies plopping themselves down in the middle of a base and becoming fortresses shouldn't be an issue if they can only spawn a squad of 12, since there won't be enough room in bases to land enough Galaxies for a whole army, and the 3+ Engineers it takes to actually keep a Galaxy alive on the ground are a much bigger deal if that Galaxy only spawns 12, not 120.

This would improve the game in several ways. One of the biggest reasons why defending bases is kind of pointless currently is because the attackers can run a Sunderer right into the base and then just have a spawn point right there. This doesn't leave the defenders any way to actually thin out the attackers before they get inside of the base, and shifts the focus of the game completely from assaulting a defensive position to simply two teams playing in a base like it's a level in a much smaller FPS.

Sunderers will still be useful with this change, since they will still be the reliable go-to spawn option that makes up the backbone of your army, and provides infantry terminals for class switching and resupplying, which LACs can't provide to you.

LACs operating right at the front line as an infantry support vehicles will create much closer cooperation between vehicles and infantry, since the LACs can't just be parked somewhere, they have to actively move with the infantry. The fact that you can repair them for a short time after they have been destroyed makes them relatively easy to take down if they don't have infantry support close by, since they likely won't have a lot of armor, but makes them harder to destroy than other vehicles if they have a lot of infantry backing them up that - meaning you can't easily take them out by doing a suicide run with C4, if there are still some engineers nearby they can just fix the LAC up. It's a real infantry support vehicle that is strong when it works with infantry, and garbage without infantry.

Spawn Beacons will be a lot less powerful, but that's because drop pods are simply too strong at the moment. Spawn beacons themselves are also a very annoying element of the game, since they tend to always be deployed in difficult to reach places. Drop Pods are not only a very powerful offensive weapon that can potentially kill even the most heavily armored vehicles, but also allow you to have a constant stream of people get airdropped onto a base without actually needing to fly any aircraft over it.
That role should fall to the Galaxy, and with Galaxy squad spawning they will take the niche that spawn beacon currently fills in a lot more elegant way.

Mordelicius · 2013-02-21, 03:59 AM

As I've replied in the latest Buzzcutpsycho thread:

They can install Spawn Jamming Sunderers instead. Defenders can deploy these Sunderers (with smaller radius of effect compared to the Spawn Sunderer). Any enemy attacker sunderer within the radius cannot spawn units.

The attacker then have to hunt down and destroy these spawn jamming sunderers. Rather than make it an automatic no-spawn zone, it's better to make it a dynamic fight between the attack/defender.

Since the radius effect of the Spawn Jamming Sunderer is smaller, then they have to be close by. The defenders will then have to defend these sunderers too. The defenders can deploy them inside walled compounds, creating the initial no spawn barriers around the base. They can even deploy these next to the capture point in smaller bases/outposts

The point being, it's up to the defenders to actively put up a no-deploy zone since they will require defending too. In return this will increase the number of objectives of the attacker creating an even deeper combat meta.

psijaka · 2013-02-21, 08:39 AM

Originally Posted by Mordelicius

As I've replied in the latest Buzzcutpsycho thread:

They can install Spawn Jamming Sunderers instead. Defenders can deploy these Sunderers (with smaller radius of effect compared to the Spawn Sunderer). Any enemy attacker sunderer within the radius cannot spawn units.

The attacker then have to hunt down and destroy these spawn jamming sunderers. Rather than make it an automatic no-spawn zone, it's better to make it a dynamic fight between the attack/defender.

Since the radius effect of the Spawn Jamming Sunderer is smaller, then they have to be close by. The defenders will then have to defend these sunderers too. The defenders can deploy them inside walled compounds, creating the initial no spawn barriers around the base. They can even deploy these next to the capture point in smaller bases/outposts

The point being, it's up to the defenders to actively put up a no-deploy zone since they will require defending too. In return this will increase the number of objectives of the attacker creating an even deeper combat meta.

^ This is a much better idea than the OP's.

I really don't like the idea of creating arbitrary static no deploy zones; a very clumsy mechanic. Much better to use intelligent placement of obstacles, spawn rooms etc to make deployment difficult, impossible or even downright suicide (overlooked by spawn room, for example).

Creating a spawn jammer Sunderer would actually give a reason for a Sunderer to be something other than an AMS, and create all kinds of interesting scenarios.

Back to the OP:

Spawn beacons are just fine; I find beacons on top of a mast or tree annoying as well, but this is no reason to do away with them; if they bug me that much, time to break out LA and deal with it. Or camp the spawners!

The new vehicle idea is interesting, but there is no way that a an arbitrary new mechanic should be introduced to allow the vehicle to be resurrected; once it is destroyed, that should be it. By what logic can a destroyed vehicle be bought back to life? I know that the game is all fantasy, but SoE at least make some attempt to keep things plausible.

Edit - I do like the idea of Galaxies becoming squad spawns; needs to be something more than a flying bus.

Edit2 - Could not the new vehicle just act as a Squad spawn? And allow class changes/resupplies etc to squad members? A mini squad Sunderer, in other words. Would be easier to implement.

Edit3 - what is the spawn timer on the current spawn beacon, default and fully certed? Would be interested to know.

Rothnang · 2013-02-21, 02:04 PM

If there is such a thing as a spawn jammer, why wouldn't it be installed in bases instead of only on certain vehicles? Now THAT is arbitrary.

By what logic can a killed soldier be brough back to life? It serves as a useful gameplay mechanic, that's the logic. The best way to make an infantry support vehicle that actually forms a symbiotic relationship with infantry is to give it some feature that lets it survive otherwise lethal damage as long as it has infantry near it. An LAC shouldn't be able to tank a significant amount of damage by itself, it shouldn't just be another Sunderer that inexplicably has way heavier armor than a tank. Giving it the 10 seconds repair window fills all the criteria, it doesn't make the vehicle absurdly well armored for what it is, and it creates a symbiotic relationship between vehicle and infantry that fights alongside it.

Also, spawn beacons aren't fine. Drop pods shouldn't be raining on your base nonstop during an assault, it completely breaks the point of defensive structures if enemies don't have to come into your base through the doors and over the walls but simply appear on the roof. It's a no risk all reward mechanic.

Mordelicius · 2013-02-23, 05:05 AM

It's a matter of counters. Simply assigning an ironclad no-deploy zone limits alot of the gameplay and increase predictability.

Air units will simply feast on sunderers scattered outside the base while bombing the hapless foot units trying to get to the choke points. While the ground defenders just blast them as they come into view. It will be repetitive with no variety.

They could add:
Spawn Jamming Sunderer - I'll give some examples of uses:
- Annoyed at the sunderer behind a huge rock that can't be killed? Park a jammer on the opposite side with support rush.
- Sunderer on top of the bridge? Put one under.
- Sunderer below a bridge? Put one on top.
- Sunderer outside the wall? Deploy one on the other side.
- Sunderer inside Ampstation A building? Deploy one outside the building and choke them out.
- In every occasion, there in an active struggle of getting a spot or taking away a spot. It's combat meta gameplay. The jammed sunderer would be pressured to attack the jamming sunderer.
- In addition, it will also increase the logistics of the attacker. Meaning, deploying more than one sunderer is now useful.

and/or (meet your idea halfway and introduce counters)

Spawn Jamming Generator - Operates much like shield generators or scu generator. It would be native to the base. Place it far away from the spawn room so both attacker and defenders will have equal access

If the Spawn Jamming generator is on, Sunderers cannot spawn within a certain radius around a control node. Attackers can destroy this generator like any other. And defenders can repair/stabilize it as usual.

Rothnang · 2013-02-23, 04:37 PM

Originally Posted by Mordelicius

It's a matter of counters. Simply assigning an ironclad no-deploy zone limits alot of the gameplay and increase predictability.

Air units will simply feast on sunderers scattered outside the base while bombing the hapless foot units trying to get to the choke points. While the ground defenders just blast them as they come into view. It will be repetitive with no variety.

The status quo should favor the defenders, and it should be up to the attackers to find a way to break their predictability. That's where tactics come in.

If you can't just rush Sunderers into the enemy base, hide spawn beacons on their roof, and instant action right on top of their capture point you might have to actually use some strategy instead of what we currently have, where most battles just boil down to a giant shit against the wall infantry battle where both sides just rush in until one or the other folds.

Just because a system punishes people for mindlessly charging in and expecting a respawn right back in the action as a reward doesn't mean it maks the game predictable. Quite the opposite, it punsihes people for acting predictably, it rewards people for figuring out a way to surprise their enemy.

Jamming Sunderers would create problems precisely because you can move them anywhere you want. It no longer gives the opponent a place where they are guaranteed a deploy. It also would make Sunderers their own best counter, which wouldn't make the game any better. The Sunderer is already the most overpowered vehicle in the entire game, it just gets a free pass because it's overpowered in a way that helps infantry instead of killing it.

psijaka · 2013-02-25, 09:08 AM

Originally Posted by Rothnang

If there is such a thing as a spawn jammer, why wouldn't it be installed in bases instead of only on certain vehicles? Now THAT is arbitrary.

By what logic can a killed soldier be brough back to life? It serves as a useful gameplay mechanic, that's the logic. The best way to make an infantry support vehicle that actually forms a symbiotic relationship with infantry is to give it some feature that lets it survive otherwise lethal damage as long as it has infantry near it. An LAC shouldn't be able to tank a significant amount of damage by itself, it shouldn't just be another Sunderer that inexplicably has way heavier armor than a tank. Giving it the 10 seconds repair window fills all the criteria, it doesn't make the vehicle absurdly well armored for what it is, and it creates a symbiotic relationship between vehicle and infantry that fights alongside it.

Also, spawn beacons aren't fine. Drop pods shouldn't be raining on your base nonstop during an assault, it completely breaks the point of defensive structures if enemies don't have to come into your base through the doors and over the walls but simply appear on the roof. It's a no risk all reward mechanic.

I'm not the one making the case for a spawn jammer in the first place. Pretty happy with AMSs as they are, TBH. Placing one inside a base is a high risk strategy; easier for the defenders to get at than one 100+m away.

Not a good comparison. Respawning is an essential mechanic used consistently within the game, used by every shooter with a very few exceptions (COD search and destroy). Introducing a vehicle that can magically be reconstructed from a burning wreck when others can't is totally arbitrary. Just give the vehicle more HP instead.

I'm sure that the majority of drop pods "raining in nonstop" are deployed through instant action, largely by randoms, not because of a spawn beacon. Spawn beacons are fine, and are integral to squad play.

BlaxicanX · 2013-02-21, 04:25 AM

I don't see Spawn-jamming sunderers being viable. In the current metagame, the attackers almost ALWAYS have armor superiority over the defenders. Out in the open, armor vs armor is common, but if the attackers have managed to get to a base, that usually means that they've already cleared out all the defender's armor. Thus, a jamming sundy wouldn't last long.

Restricting sunderer's to spawning only outside of bases would lengthen the supply line to get to the base by too much; which is something you see quite commonly even now: if a sunderer is parked outside of a base, the reinforcement line turns into a trickling assembly line of death that the defenders can pick off one at a time.

I don't really see anything wrong with sunderer spawns as they are now. I've never had trouble defending a base because of there being too many infantry enemies, personally.

Rothnang · 2013-02-21, 05:52 AM

Spawn Jamming doesn't really seem viable to me. Bases need to be much more difficult to completely wreck and incapacitate before the defenders even get there. Currently by the time you get to a base that's under attack most of the time all the generators are already down, the terminals are destroyed or hacked, the vehicle bay full of enemy Sunderers and often the SCU is already down.

Simply adding a standoff zone for Sunderer deployment and giving more atractive options for respawning people at the front lines is simply better.

I mean let's not forget that there are MEDICS in this game. Even if they changed nothing else I'd claim that you can fight just fine at the front line with solid teamwork. Sunderers are a crutch right now, they take away from the scale this game should have by pushing two infinite spawnpoints often within less than 100 meters of each other.

Realmofdarkness · 2013-02-21, 06:27 AM

just make the spawn timer increased based on how far it is deployed from nearest friendly territory. then you have the option to spawn right away in nearest base or wait a pretty long time if you want to spawn inside enemy base

Rothnang · 2013-02-21, 06:37 AM

Originally Posted by Realmofdarkness

just make the spawn timer increased based on how far it is deployed from nearest friendly territory. then you have the option to spawn right away in nearest base or wait a pretty long time if you want to spawn inside enemy base

That would also be a possibility, but it'd still need some other frontline-spawning options so the pace of the game doesn't slow down too dramatically for infantry.

almalino · 2013-02-21, 06:55 AM

Rothnang

Was it your suggestion or is it already confirmed as a future change to PS2? I do not get it though sounds interesting if implemented.

Rothnang · 2013-02-21, 07:02 AM

It's just my personal idea for a redesign, nothing official.

Qwan · 2013-02-21, 07:23 AM

I dont know gentlemen this seems like a far stretched idea to slow the spawning rate of attackers. I mean as of right now, most bases aren't even worth defending, infact we dont defend unless its a tech plant or they are cutting progress off from the warp gate. Other than that we let most bases flip, then take them back (Yes I am a XP/cert hore). But as it stands now, when Sundy's come close to the base we can usually spot them, and unless they come with some heavy armor and alot of ground troops we can take them out pretty quickly. If the zerg shows up then yea there is no getting to there spawn point. But most smaller groups we can usually take out there sundy and defend if we have to. I like the Idea though but as of right now in the game I cant see a reason to change the current spawn ability of attackers. I do like the spawn ability in the gal though, wish they would bring it back, but its likely not going to happen. I mean maybe they can bring it back, but you have to take off extra armor for it to work, this way defenders have a chance to take it out.

Rothnang · 2013-02-21, 07:44 AM

Of course you can kill Sunderers to stop an attack, but they still have a very specific effect on almost every single battle, namely charging across the large open areas that are supposed to be part of the battle in the game, deploying somewhere in the base, and then it's just a big dumb zerg off to see what happens first, someone successfully suicide mines the Sunderer, or the base gets flipped.

Think of the epic battles that happen when you actually have Sunderers deployed away from the bases. Huge infantry charges at defended strongpoints, a deadly back and forth, people trying to push into a base, attackers trying to push out. No spawning right next to the cap point, no killing the sunderer by running at it with mines over and over until you get lucky. It's a real war when there is a bit of land between the belligerents, and that's a lot more fun.

That usually only happens when the base is so full of people before the attack starts that the attackers can't get a Sunderer inside the base and set up and a large enough group of people spawned into the base to make dealing with the Sunderer impossible without a lucky suicide run. The attackers find themselves forced to put the Sunderer outside the base behind a rock somewhere, and leg it the last 100 meters - and that makes all the difference.