Time to Kill(TTK) needs to be increased.

Assist · 2013-02-21, 05:13 PM

I'd assume this is a rather hotly debated topic, but I think with the new SMG's the difference between classes is really being lost. With TTK being as low as it is I feel like I can kill just as efficiently with any class and because of that there's no real specialization in weapons. Maybe that's the intended effect of having all these high fire rate weapons, but I always thought the idea of classes was to differentiate in as many ways as possible.

My basic argument boils down to the game needs to have larger advantages and disadvantages between weapons. For starters it will increase the skill ceiling, because head-shots become more important. It will also lower the pray and spray attitude that it seems a lot of PS2 players have. Players will have to manage their ammo more and in doing so infantry fights will become more strategic. If you know your spray won't down the guy running across the hill 100m away you may instead re-position, it brings more strategy to the game. Giving players time to react to a situation is never a bad thing, as it only makes each side play more responsibly. Personally I feel that the only weapons that have the correct TTK are the shotguns and rocket launchers. The problem I have is how close to that TTK the other automatic weapons are how useless the semi-auto weapons are because of it.

Don't get me wrong here, the classes still have their defined roles because of the other tools they have. But the weapons are really blurring the line between being a support style weapon and a full on assault style weapon. I really love the new SMG's and I don't see them as a bad thing for the game, the problem is I use them on my Light Assault, Infiltrator, and Engineer. The reason is personal preference more than anything, with the TTK difference as small as it is between the SMG's and the Carbines, why shouldn't I use the same gun with all three and therefore be more familiar with my weapon?

NewSith · 2013-02-21, 05:22 PM

Low TTK

Pros:

Infantry weapon balance is achieved more easily, since any OP weapon stands out instantly.
Gunplay becomes more intuitive, rather than concious.
Tactics are promoted for non-twitch players, due to first-sight kill advantage.
Highly aim-skilled players getting a handicap, allowing balancing between the casuals and the competitives.
Aimbot and other weapon-enhancing cheaters getting a handicap.
Attracts modern PC gamers.

Cons:

Weapon functional variety suffers.
A gap between players that use cover and those who do not significantly increases.
Vehicle vs Infantry weapon balance is harder to achieve.
Combat is more chaotic.
Removes the middle class effectiveness. Big groups or proficient solo players dominate. In other words it promotes zerging, due to the nature of it being "just getting one bullet on him each, he doesn't need much".
Makes thinking during combat harder. While it handicaps aim twitch, it promotes quick thinking. Some players are incapable of it ( reasons can be age, lack of experience, lack of the proper type of thinking, etc)

http://forums.station.sony.com/ps2/i...vs-cons.96584/

Mox · 2013-02-22, 12:06 PM

Originally Posted by NewSith

Low TTK

Pros:

Infantry weapon balance is achieved more easily, since any OP weapon stands out instantly.
Gunplay becomes more intuitive, rather than concious.
Tactics are promoted for non-twitch players, due to first-sight kill advantage.
Highly aim-skilled players getting a handicap, allowing balancing between the casuals and the competitives.
Aimbot and other weapon-enhancing cheaters getting a handicap.
Attracts modern PC gamers.

Cons:

Weapon functional variety suffers.
A gap between players that use cover and those who do not significantly increases.
Vehicle vs Infantry weapon balance is harder to achieve.
Combat is more chaotic.
Removes the middle class effectiveness. Big groups or proficient solo players dominate. In other words it promotes zerging, due to the nature of it being "just getting one bullet on him each, he doesn't need much".
Makes thinking during combat harder. While it handicaps aim twitch, it promotes quick thinking. Some players are incapable of it ( reasons can be age, lack of experience, lack of the proper type of thinking, etc)

http://forums.station.sony.com/ps2/i...vs-cons.96584/

Where do you get this from? I see no proof for your claims. If you ask me almost everything bullshit.

NewSith · 2013-02-22, 04:12 PM

Originally Posted by Mox

Where do you get this from? I see no proof for your claims. If you ask me almost everything bullshit.

You are free to bring your arguments against my claims...

I take these from my visibly limited experience with all FPSes there on the market. I obviously only played Halo, CoD and BF3 and never played PS1.

-----------------------------------------
EDIT: Hmmmm, this kind of response actually made me think a bit about the FPSes (and TPSes) I played in MP. So let's go:

Medium-High TTK:
Aliens vs. Predator (Though, arguable, since 3 sides all play differently)
Battlefield 2
Battlefield 2142
Brink
Call of Duty
Call of Duty 2
Counter-Strike 1.6
Counter-Strike Source
Command and Conquer: Renegade
Enemy Territory: Quake Wars
Half-Life
Half-Life 2
Hellgate: London (PvP)
Monday Night Combat
Serious Sam: The Second Encounter
Serious Sam 2
Snowblind
S.T.A.L.K.E.R.
Star Wars Jedi Knight 2: Jedi Outcast
Star Wars Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy
Star Wars Battlefront
Star Wars Battlefront 2
Team Fortress 2
Tribes Ascend
Unreal Tournament
Unreal Tournament 2003
Unreal Tournament 2004
Warhammer 40000: Space Marine

Low TTK:
Battlefield 3
Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare
Counter-Strike: Global Offensive
Crysis 2
Far Cry 3
F.E.A.R.
F.E.A.R. 3
Frontlines: Fuel of War
PlanetSide 2
Sniper: Ghost Warrior
SWAT 4
Quake 3

Games without hitbox differentiation, thus TTK having less value:
APB Reloaded
Global Agenda
PlanetSide

I bet I forgot a few...

Mox · 2013-02-23, 10:33 AM

Originally Posted by NewSith

You are free to bring your arguments against my claims...

Sorry, i have to apologize i just read this:

Originally Posted by NewSith

Low TTK

Pros:.....

Now your claims starting to make a lot more sense. I thought you are talking about the pros and cons of increasing TTK....

My fault.

Tatwi · 2013-02-21, 05:27 PM

Would be alright if they fix hit registration as well. I stood 5 feet behind a guy today and got the X for hitting him (with the TMG-50) at least 10 times, but when he turned around and killed me he was at half health. Other times people will drop dead in an instant, without being headshot. It don't make sense!

Heads hit boxes should much be smaller and, for the sake of balance, some weapons (like SMGs and other high rate of fire weapons) should not get a damage bonus for hitting the head. Flack/explosion damage radii should also be decreased a bit, simply because it's far too easy effect people who aren't even being aimed at by the shooter.

Spray and pray will not stop unless ammo starts costing money, because sources of ammo are almost always just a few seconds away.

I agree entirely that the weapons feel the same. I have both TR SMGs and I can't tell them apart, beyond that I wasted 700SC on one that has half the ammo capacity (though I did spend the 100 certs to kick it up to 40 before I bought the new one). The difference in their rate of fire is not noticeable.

Neurotoxin · 2013-02-21, 05:31 PM

I agree with you 100%. I feel TTK should be far slower than it is right now. I feel the game should be about tactically overwhelming the enemy, not rapidly slaying one target and moving to the next one. I agree that the ability for a close range only SMG to outclass other weapons definitely could be an issue, but keep in mind that it is a close range weapon, and catching that player even at medium range (flushing them out with a grenade can facilitate this) puts them at a disadvantage. It feels about the same as when shotguns were introduced, powerful close-range weapons that folks still aren't used to fighting yet.

In terms of rebalancing the game as a whole, I'd double vehicle armor and cut vehicle damage output it in half. For infantry, I'd add a higher degree of customization, letting the player select a shield AND armor AND utility, so they have better survival and get to rely more on gear that accommodates their play style. Infantry weapon damage vs infantry could also be reduced to 75% of what it is now. Additional limits could be put on snipers to preserve their 1HK properties without making them so powerful that the game will just become a sniping headshotfest.

Ghoest9 · 2013-02-21, 05:39 PM

NO

Increasing TTK rewards people who jump around and rely on twitch and punishes people who use tactics and craftiness.

If you dont like infiltrators with stealth - then complain about the cloak. Low TTK helps players of all classes who use their brain before the shooting starts.

Tatwi · 2013-02-21, 05:40 PM

Originally Posted by Ghoest9

NO

Increasing TTK rewards people who jump around and rely on twitch and punishes people who use tactics and stealth.

Personally, I think your monitor should explode in your face if you jump around like a tool when people are shooting at you, in any game.

ShadetheDruid · 2013-02-21, 06:01 PM

Do we really need yet another TTK discussion? These always go exactly the same way every time. This needs to be killed before it turns into another shit throwing contest like the last 5 topics.

Assist · 2013-02-21, 06:30 PM

Originally Posted by ShadetheDruid

Do we really need yet another TTK discussion? These always go exactly the same way every time. This needs to be killed before it turns into another shit throwing contest like the last 5 topics.

I don't see why someone would turn this into personal attacks. It's about a general game mechanic, not about a certain weapon/situation being overpowered.
I don't see the argument FOR a low TTK, if someone could lay that out for me.

bpostal · 2013-02-21, 06:55 PM

Originally Posted by Tatwi

Personally, I think your monitor should explode in your face if you jump around like a tool when people are shooting at you, in any game.

First it should fall into your lap. THEN explode. To ensure that the bunny hopping isn't spread to another generation of tools.

As to the topic of TTK, I think it could stand to be increased slightly but I doubt we'll ever see it happen.

Mietz · 2013-02-21, 06:04 PM

You might want to don your flame retardant suit for this one.

OT- Yes, a slight TTK increase would not hurt this game at all.

PS: @Ghoest9, bunnyhopping and "twitch" has zero to do with TTK (theoretical weapon TTK). Your opinion is based on ignorance and repeating annoying memes.

Ghoest9 · 2013-02-21, 06:10 PM

Originally Posted by Mietz

You might want to don your flame retardant suit for this one.

OT- Yes, a slight TTK increase would not hurt this game at all.

PS: @Ghoest9, bunnyhopping and "twitch" has zero to do with TTK (theoretical weapon TTK). Your opinion is based on ignorance and repeating annoying memes.

Wrong.

1 Long time to kill gives people a chances to turn around and start circle strafing after you start shooting them in the back.

This is true. We all know its true.

2 I never said "bunny hopping". I can tell you for a fact that using my jump jets often saves my life when people are shooting at me. Because it causes many people to miss. And further I can say that i often miss people who are using jump jets.
A longer TTK is just another oppertunity to use JJs.

Try harder lil guy.

Mietz · 2013-02-21, 06:29 PM

Originally Posted by Ghoest9

Try harder lil guy.

Say hi to my ignore list.