MAX Units and resurrection

Rothnang · 2013-03-22, 03:21 PM

I think it's unfair that MAX Units can be resurrected by a medic. They have a cost and a timer, like a vehicle, but they can be revived by a Medic after they have died, which essentially makes it impossible to kill MAX units unless you can completely overrun their position.

Particularly burster MAXes are really stupidly overpowered because of this, because it gives Aircraft no way of actually taking them out. If you manage to kill a burster MAX in a strafing run, which isn't easy to begin with he will just instantly be brought back to life. Every other vehicle in the game at the very least has to incur the timer. It's not just overpowered against air, but also when compared to other AA units. A Skyguard lives a pretty dangerous life in PS2, it's a big target, and easier to destroy than a Burster MAX because of that, and once its dead it stays dead.

In fights inside of a Biolab it also gets really obnoxious to deal with piles of dead MAX units everywhere that are waiting around for a medic to come by and put them back into the fight. Even if the guy is lying directly at my feet I can't do anything to destroy that suit for good, I just have to accept that its sitting there, like a ticking timebomb that can get right back to killing everyone if a medic sets it off.

Either you shouldn't be able to revive MAX units or you should be able to somehow destroy them beyond the point where they can be revived, like by blowing them up once they are on the ground. If a guy eats a Dalton to the face he shouldn't be in a shape where you can just spray some fairy dust on him and he's good to go again. If a dead MAX is just lying around in base somewhere I should be able to kill it for good as well.

p0intman · 2013-03-22, 03:28 PM

Originally Posted by Rothnang

I think it's unfair that MAX Units can be resurrected by a medic. They have a cost and a timer, like a vehicle, but they can be revived by a Medic after they have died, which essentially makes it impossible to kill MAX units unless you can completely overrun their position.

Particularly burster MAXes are really stupidly overpowered because of this, because it gives Aircraft no way of actually taking them out. If you manage to kill a burster MAX in a strafing run, which isn't easy to begin with he will just instantly be brought back to life. Every other vehicle in the game at the very least has to incur the timer. It's not just overpowered against air, but also when compared to other AA units. A Skyguard lives a pretty dangerous life in PS2, it's a big target, and easier to destroy than a Burster MAX because of that, and once its dead it stays dead.

In fights inside of a Biolab it also gets really obnoxious to deal with piles of dead MAX units everywhere that are waiting around for a medic to come by and put them back into the fight. Even if the guy is lying directly at my feet I can't do anything to destroy that suit for good, I just have to accept that its sitting there, like a ticking timebomb that can get right back to killing everyone if a medic sets it off.

Either you shouldn't be able to revive MAX units or you should be able to somehow destroy them beyond the point where they can be revived, like by blowing them up once they are on the ground. If a guy eats a Dalton to the face he shouldn't be in a shape where you can just spray some fairy dust on him and he's good to go again. If a dead MAX is just lying around in base somewhere I should be able to kill it for good as well.

hi, max units could be revived in PS1 as well. They had a timer there, too. The only thing that is new to this equation is resource cost. of course, overrunning a position in ps1 meant that usually you'd be better off simply respawning and getting another max if you didn't have a timer, because of base design. The difference here is that base design permits a skilled ninja who is also a medic to get to a max and revive it. Even then, maxes don't usually last very long without support, so it shouldn't be a big deal.

Assist · 2013-03-22, 03:33 PM

eh, Burster MAX needs a medic and Engineer to be effective. Three people, and you're attempting to overrun them with one person/vehicle.

If your complaint was Burster MAX's are too strong I would agree, there's too much AA in the game already and they make the Skyguard obsolete as they are right now. Kind of why I've always campaigned for the Liberator to be nerfed as its the only reason AA is as powerful as it is, which makes it ridiculous against ESF's.

I never understood being able to lay there dead forever waiting for a rez. Other games solved this with having the ability to kill someone, then they get a timer until force respawn. Usually there's some way for the opponent to end that timer. I know in Darkfall it was really important to not only be able to kill your enemy but create enough time to gank that enemy who was laying there dead(force respawn). Give people another health bar 2x as long as the current one that has to also be destroyed to make it so that player cannot be revived.

I'm fine with MAX's being able to be rezzed though. Using the argument that they're splattered into a million pieces doesn't really work, the medic is afterall bringing people back to life... not exactly a true-to-life scenario :P Although the collision detection with bodies is becoming really frustrating as I've started to notice some outfits using it to their advantage to block doorways.

Rolfski · 2013-03-22, 05:30 PM

I don't think this is off balance tbh and besides that, a Max is a human in a skeloton so it makes sense that 2 classes are needed to revive and heal them.

TheSaltySeagull · 2013-03-23, 02:19 AM

At one point in the beta you could not rez a dead max. But this was only implemented because at that time max units were a lot more powerful and did not have the restrictions of a timer or resource cost. But the idea of non rezzable max units was not well received by the community as a whole. So when the devs added in the current restrictions they also made it so a medic could rez them.

The reason many did not like the idea of being unable to rez a max is because it conflicted with one of their primary roles which is to act as a meat shield and breaching tool. Naturally if they could not be rezzed when killed it caused players to play far more conservatively rather than charge forward to try and break a hold. This would be made even worse with the current restrictions. You would be left with timid max suits who are essentially useless at that point.

I know your argument was centered more on the burster max but you have to keep in mind that a max has other roles beside AA. And when proposing such a radical change you have to consider how it will impact those other roles.

Hamma · 2013-03-23, 02:33 PM

They actually tested this in beta and made it so they could not be rezzed for a bit. Ultimately rezzing went back in, I'm sure they found that it was a bit to strict.

camycamera · 2013-03-24, 07:39 AM

it is balanced, nothing wrong with it.

bpostal · 2013-03-24, 09:15 AM

Originally Posted by Rothnang

...Either you shouldn't be able to revive MAX units or you should be able to somehow destroy them beyond the point where they can be revived, like by blowing them up once they are on the ground. ...

What? No.

Rothnang · 2013-03-24, 03:41 PM

It's not even close to balanced. Why should anyone deploy Skyguards if an enemy squad can sneak behind their lines and kill the Skyguards to take away their anti-air when they can just as well pull Burster MAXes that don't give a shit if they are taken out until the entire position is completely overrun?

I mean we can also make all vehicles resurrectable, then it would be even.

Ruffdog · 2013-03-24, 04:01 PM

Its never struck me as unfair.
You can get out of your skyguard lightning and fix it. You can't get out of your MAX suit, you need team mates (unless auto regen which I never bother with)

Rothnang · 2013-03-24, 05:37 PM

Originally Posted by Ruffdog

Its never struck me as unfair.
You can get out of your skyguard lightning and fix it. You can't get out of your MAX suit, you need team mates (unless auto regen which I never bother with)

Given the fact that both need another player to fill their ammo needs it's not exactly a huge inconvenience that the Engineer who supplies your MAX also repairs it. On top of that the Skyguard needs a Sundy to ammo it up, which is again considerably more expensive and not infinitely replaceable like an engineer.

BIGGByran · 2013-03-24, 04:36 PM

Actually, after a MAX is dead for a certain amount of time, they are unrezable (same applies to infantry). Not sure how long, but it isn't to long, maybe a minute of death, then it can't be rezzed anymore. Timer might be shorter, but I know there have been times where a MAX wasn't dead for too long and I was unable to rez them.

Gatekeeper · 2013-03-25, 05:10 AM

I can see where you're coming from, but most people seem to feel that it works well as it is currently.

Honestly your big problem seems to be with how powerful Burster MAXs are, especially compared to Skyguards - which seems like a fair point. Nerfing Bursters a bit and buffing Skyguards a bit seems like a good solution to me, no need to mess around with the game mechanics.

Rothnang · 2013-03-25, 06:42 AM

Originally Posted by Gatekeeper

I can see where you're coming from, but most people seem to feel that it works well as it is currently.

Honestly your big problem seems to be with how powerful Burster MAXs are, especially compared to Skyguards - which seems like a fair point. Nerfing Bursters a bit and buffing Skyguards a bit seems like a good solution to me, no need to mess around with the game mechanics.

The reason why the problem isn't so huge with anything other than Bursters is because those MAX Units have short range, so if you beat them in a fight chances are you'll be around to stop them from getting revived.

With Bursters however they have extremely long range, and can operate from well behind their own lines. That creates a situation where anyone who manages to take them out really can't secure the location in a meaningful way until the battle is already won anyways.

On top of that you can easily just deploy your bursters next to a spawnroom and get near perfect coverage of the base due to their extreme range, which makes it completely impossible for anyone to get them before the base flips.

The problem here isn't that the unit itself is too strong, but just all the cheesy ways it has to get out of a deserved death. You can't really take it out without pretty much taking the whole base.

Gatekeeper · 2013-03-25, 06:58 AM

Originally Posted by Rothnang

The reason why the problem isn't so huge with anything other than Bursters is because those MAX Units have short range, so if you beat them in a fight chances are you'll be around to stop them from getting revived.

With Bursters however they have extremely long range, and can operate from well behind their own lines. That creates a situation where anyone who manages to take them out really can't secure the location in a meaningful way until the battle is already won anyways.

On top of that you can easily just deploy your bursters next to a spawnroom and get near perfect coverage of the base due to their extreme range, which makes it completely impossible for anyone to get them before the base flips.

The problem here isn't that the unit itself is too strong, but just all the cheesy ways it has to get out of a deserved death. You can't really take it out without pretty much taking the whole base.

Yeah, I agree with most of that - but if there isn't really a problem with other MAXs then it's simpler to adjust the balance of the Burster itself, rather than to try and change MAXs in general.

And honestly, the 'cheesy ways it has to get out of a deserved death' are part of the overall strength of the unit and part of what makes it unique (rather than just a Skyguard with legs) - so I'd say it's better and simpler to keep that the same, but nerf its offensive power (and buff the Skyguard a bit to keep overall AA strength the same).