MAX Balance Part 1: NC

Chewy · 2013-07-04, 03:51 AM

Im far to sleepy to type out of this again. So PSU all you're going to get is a sloppy copy of what I posted on the official PS2 forums. Link.
https://forums.station.sony.com/ps2/...t-1-nc.138919/

Math used.
I don't feel like typing all of my math for every weapon. So I am giving my math here and just typing the end bits for miss %, TTK, and DPS to save time and my fingers.
ROF / 60 = RPS X 2 = Dual RPS
Total Shots X Damage Per Round = Possible Damage - 10,000(assumed MAX HP) = Missed Damage
(Missed Damage / Possible Damage) X 100 = Miss %
Shots fired / Dual RPS = Fire Time + Reloads = TTK
10,000(MAX HP) / TTK = DPS

Weapons stats.
http://planetside.wikia.com/wiki/MAX_Anti-Infantry

NC MAX AI weapons.

Scattercannon
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0-w...FfOVrF&index=2

Stats
Max Damage:130x6 before 8m
Min Damage:50x6 after 18m
Damage Drop:8
Short Reload:3s
Long Reload:3.8s
Fire Rate:180

MAX v MAX
0m- 13
10m- 17, 17, 16 (16.66 average)
15m- 36, 34, 40 (36.66 average)
20m- 72

Hacksaw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mETq...FfOVrF&index=4

Stats
Max Damage:125x6 before 10m
Min Damage:45x6 after 18m
Damage Drop:8
Short Reload:3.2s
Long Reload:4s
Fire Rate:209

MAX v MAX
0m- 14
10m- 28, 24, 24 (25.33 average)
15m- 56, 60 (58 average)
20m- 116

Grinder
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-Tl...FfOVrF&index=1

Stats
Max Damage:130x6 before 8m
Min Damage:50x6 after 18m
Damage Drop:8
Short Reload:3.4s
Long Reload:4.3s
Fire Rate:180

MAX v MAX
0m- 13
10m- 20, 20, 20 (20 average)
15m- 42, 48 (45 average)
20m- 92

Mattock
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRH...FfOVrF&index=3

Stats
Max Damage:112x6 before 10m
Min Damage:70x6 after 30m
Damage Drop:2.1
Short Reload:3s
Long Reload:3.8s
Fire Rate:180

MAX v MAX
0m- 15
10m- 16, 15, 15 (15.33 average)
15m- 23, 23, 21 (22.33 average)
20m- 36, 32, 34 (34 average)

Results in order of 0m 10m 15m 20m.
Scattercannon-
0% miss _______12.24% miss____38.56% miss___53.7% miss
5.96 TTK_______6.57 TTK_______17.51 TTK ____31 TTK
1,677.85 DPS___ 1,522.07 DPS___571.1 DPS____ 322.58 DPS

Hacksaw-
0% miss________39.63% miss ___58.35% miss____68.07% miss
6.01 TTK _______11.63 TTK _____32.33 TTK _____80.66 TTK
1,663.89 DPS ___859.84 DPS ____309.31 DPS ___123.97 DPS

Grinder-
0% miss _______26.9% miss _____49.94% miss ___63.76% miss
2.16 TTK _______7.63 TTK ______16.1 TTK ______32.53 TTK
4,629.62 DPS ___1,310.61 DPS ___621.11 DPS ____307.4 DPS

Mattock-
0% miss ______2.92% miss _____26.46% miss ____46.13% miss
6.3 TTK _______6.32 TTK ______7.52 TTK _______13.26 TTK
1,587.3 DPS ___1582.27 DPS ___1,329.78 DPS ___754.14 DPS

Opinions-
The only NC MAX AI weapon worth a damn without certs is the Grinder. Get dual Grinders and nothing will stand in front of you but even they are limited to point blank (under 10m) or risk losing a MAX fight. But if you add cert options (not slugs, I hate slugs) then a dual Mattock MAX will rule above all other NC MAX weapons. Mattocks may need to most ammo to kill a MAX point blank but their range by FAR make up for that limit. Mattocks are the ONLY NC MAX AI weapon that compares to the AI weapons on either TR or VS MAXes.

And to the opposite of what most forums warriors want you to think. Hacksaws are **** now, pure and simple. They are in my opinion the worst weapon a NC MAX can get unless you're incapable of clicking your mouse more than once.

I have tests done for all MAX AI weapons but only have done the math (in this detail) for NC so far. The videos of them can be found in my YT channel if you're willing to get a sneak peak at what all MAX AI weapons can do. This is also not something I can burn through and just making this page took 2-3 hours if not more in trying to get everything right. In after thought doing all of this past midnight isn't the best of ideas.

Please note that I do plan on doing the same for TR and VS MAX AI weapons. They will just have to wait a bit. In the mean time use this data as you will. But if another half-***** ******** contest starts without one side showing proof then man am I going to be pissed.

MGP · 2013-07-04, 04:25 AM

http://ps2-stats.com/weapon/infantry...x/all/per-hour

That is all.

typhaon · 2013-07-04, 04:43 AM

I can sum it up better for you... every NC MAX is the worst at what it does, at the moment.

AI - We're poor... only in close range fights vs. infantry do we perform OK. We are junk vs. any MAX.

AV - Worst by a country mile. Fracture > anything we have. ZOE + whatever is greater than anything we have.

AA - we don't have ZOE, we don't have Lockdown.

Gatekeeper · 2013-07-04, 05:12 AM

Originally Posted by MGP

http://ps2-stats.com/weapon/infantry...x/all/per-hour

That is all.

Yeah, those stats really do speak for themselves.

I'm getting really bored of people crying about the AI weapons on NC MAXs - just because they've been nerfed doesn't mean they're crap now - they're just less OP than they were.

Again, I'd compare VS/TR AI weapons to SMGs - better at range than shotguns, but still pretty poor - and weaker at CQC as a trade-off. That makes them more versatile, but overall less powerful.

Originally Posted by typhaon

I can sum it up better for you... every NC MAX is the worst at what it does, at the moment.

AI - We're poor... only in close range fights vs. infantry do we perform OK. We are junk vs. any MAX.

AV - Worst by a country mile. Fracture > anything we have. ZOE + whatever is greater than anything we have.

AA - we don't have ZOE, we don't have Lockdown.

Disagree completely about AI: NC AI is still the strongest option.

As VS infantry I fear NC MAXs far more than TR ones. An NC AI MAX will often kill me before I can do anything, whereas I can at least dive into cover from a TR one, and maybe work round behind it with my Deci or C4, or plain run away.

As for AV: I'd say the Falcon is a strong option, probably better than the Comet and clearly better than the Pounder. And although the Fracture is probably the king of the new AV options, the Raven is still strong. The only glaring weakness amongst the new AV weapons is the Vortex's incredibly poor AI power.

Finally, while it's fair to say the NC MAX has an overall disadvantage in AA damage output, it's worth bearing in mind that the TR have to lock-down to achieve that, making them more vulnerable and limiting their arc of fire, and the VS take additional damage from incoming fire - so it's not as simple as you're making out.

So, I guess I'd summarise by saying that NC MAXs have the best AI, medium AV and the weakest AA. Sounds pretty balanced to me.

War Barney · 2013-07-04, 08:46 AM

You can tell these idiots who are trying to say that the NC MAX is fine have never played one. Do those stats speak for themself? how up to date are those stats? are they from the last week? And wheres the anti vehicle list? cos when I play a VS MAX I tend to just 1 shot everybody with those huge ass plasma cannons that also slaughter vehicles.

Please just stop trying to deny how worthless the NC MAX is until you have played one. Its far and away the WORST in the game with the worst new ability ever. I would give every weapon the NC MAX has for 1 of the new abilities the other MAXs got.

Gatekeeper · 2013-07-04, 09:06 AM

Originally Posted by War Barney

when I play a VS MAX I tend to just 1 shot everybody with those huge ass plasma cannons that also slaughter vehicles.

No. You don't.

I guess you're talking about the Comet, and have failed to notice that it does about half as much damage as the NC Falcon (475 vs 875, according to the wiki here). So as far as I can see, the only way to '1 shot' someone with it would be if you hit an Infiltrator with both arms, or if you're double head-shotting people consistently.

If you're talking about using the Vortex to one-shot people then hahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

MrMak · 2013-07-04, 09:05 AM

War Barney....just stop. You are embarassing yourself.

The more you start to rage the less seriously people will treat you. And seeing oyu said the NC MAX is rubbish at close range......that wasnt a lot of people to begin with.

I still say you need to swap factions if you really need your spray guns to kill infantry.

Now on to the topic: Even if it does take a bit longer to kill a MAX you still have to factor in the shield. You can use that both get to closer and protect yourself while reloading.

I can agree the Hacksaw got a little bit over nerfed.

Overall NC MAXes excell in close range (if one is capable of actualy aiming) against softies (with dual AI scatters/mattocks/grinders you jsut clock on the guy and he is dead), but loose effectivness with range more than other MAXes. Slugs are a partial remedy to the issue but you need to be a good shot with those.

The Shield plays well into compensatign for their range weakness (you can close the distance without taking major damage) and thel ong relad (reloads continue if you put the shield up).

Like someone said before me the NC MAX is good agaisnt infantry medium at aV and poor ish at AA but the bonuses given tobursters by ZOE and lockdown arent al lthat good anymore osits am inor disadvantage.

The one thing aobut current MAXes i dontl ike right now is the Fracture. That thing is way to effective at everything.

War Barney · 2013-07-04, 09:10 AM

Sadly mr chewy this is the best you can expect, trolls from the other factions trying to claim our MAX is fine cos they don't want it fixed.

Shogun · 2013-07-04, 09:12 AM

yeah, giving the max that is worst at killing anything a defense ability, while the effective killer maxes got abilities that make them even more effective in killing really didn´t help.

the balance is screwed up completely, and i am still convinced that this is caused by the low ttk. there just is no range of balance. you are either underpowered or overpowered. there just is no space for a middleground. that´s why there will never be any real balance. not between factions and not between infantry, vehicles and aircrafts. ps1 had this right.

ChipMHazard · 2013-07-04, 09:25 AM

The Scattermax will never be properly balanced as long as SOE sticks to their shotgun mentality, imo.
Shotguns are inherently effective at close ranges, especially in a game with low TTK, and since a lot of combat is centered around close combat that means the one volley killing Scattermax is going to be seen as being too effective. The problem is however that it's not effective outside of close quarters. So far SOE has been unable to balance the Scattermax, it's been a back and forth battle since the tech test. They keep balancing it the wrong way. The problem with the scatterguns is that they can instagib infantry and the only way they are being balanced is really against other MAXs.

Here's a problem with the F2P model, they can't do what I think needs to be done. Replace the scatterguns with HMGs and possibly give less powerful MAX shotguns to all factions. Give all this shotgun focus bs a rest, the NC don't need shotguns to have hard hitting weapons.
Since that's not an option then the only way I can see the scatterguns become better balanced is if they give them fire modes like in Planetside 1. May still not work with the substantial difference in TTK, but should still be easier to balance.

Also War Barney you can tell those idiots calling other people idiots that they should stop calling other people idiots simply because they don't agree with the people they regard as being idiots.

Gatekeeper · 2013-07-04, 09:55 AM

Originally Posted by ChipMHazard

The Scattermax will never be properly balanced as long as SOE sticks to their shotgun mentality, imo.
Shotguns are inherently effective at close ranges, especially in a game with low TTK, and since a lot of combat is centered around close combat that means the one volley killing Scattermax is going to be seen as being too effective. The problem is however that it's not effective outside of close quarters. So far SOE has been unable to balance the Scattermax, it's been a back and forth battle since the tech test. They keep balancing it the wrong way. The problem with the scatterguns is that they can instagib infantry and the only way they are being balanced is really against other MAXs.

Here's a problem with the F2P model, they can't do what I think needs to be done. Replace the scatterguns with HMGs and possibly give less powerful MAX shotguns to all factions. Give all this shotgun focus bs a rest, the NC don't need shotguns to have hard hitting weapons.
Since that's not an option then the only way I can see the scatterguns become better balanced is if they give them fire modes like in Planetside 1. May still not work with the substantial difference in TTK, but should still be easier to balance.

Also War Barney you can tell those idiots calling other people idiots that they should stop calling other people idiots simply because they don't agree with the people they regard as being idiots.

You make a sound point, SOE has always struggled to balance shotguns - it's just that much worse with the NC MAXs, because it's a shotgun that only one faction has.

That said, as a regular shotgun user I'm pretty happy with how normal shotguns work now, and the balance between them and SMGs seems decent (shotguns seem overall better to me, but I'm sure opinions differ).

So I think it's reasonable that SOE can take this as a model for balancing NC AI weapons against VS/TR ones - and TBH I suspect that's exactly what they're aiming for.

TBH if NC think the scattercannon is UP and everyone else thinks it's OP, that might just mean we've hit the sweet point of balance already

Badjuju · 2013-07-04, 10:16 AM

Originally Posted by ChipMHazard

The Scattermax will never be properly balanced as long as SOE sticks to their shotgun mentality, imo.
Shotguns are inherently effective at close ranges, especially in a game with low TTK, and since a lot of combat is centered around close combat that means the one volley killing Scattermax is going to be seen as being too effective. The problem is however that it's not effective outside of close quarters. So far SOE has been unable to balance the Scattermax, it's been a back and forth battle since the tech test. They keep balancing it the wrong way. The problem with the scatterguns is that they can instagib infantry and the only way they are being balanced is really against other MAXs.

Here's a problem with the F2P model, they can't do what I think needs to be done. Replace the scatterguns with HMGs and possibly give less powerful MAX shotguns to all factions. Give all this shotgun focus bs a rest, the NC don't need shotguns to have hard hitting weapons.
Since that's not an option then the only way I can see the scatterguns become better balanced is if they give them fire modes like in Planetside 1. May still not work with the substantial difference in TTK, but should still be easier to balance.

Also War Barney you can tell those idiots calling other people idiots that they should stop calling other people idiots simply because they don't agree with the people they regard as being idiots.

This. Many of us have said this from the beginning. You cannot balance shotguns in a low ttk game. It will be either underpowered or overpowered. Right now of course it melts any max or infantry close to it, but at range it is useless. The biggest issue with them is their ability to kill infantry with out giving them time to react. It is just a bad mechanic all the way around IMO.

I was hoping for HMGs before release as you mentioned chip, and would love to see them go that rout. I would hate of they gave all maxes shot guns though lol.

Sledgecrushr · 2013-07-04, 11:30 AM

Originally Posted by Badjuju

This. Many of us have said this from the beginning. You cannot balance shotguns in a low ttk game. It will be either underpowered or overpowered. Right now of course it melts any max or infantry close to it, but at range it is useless. The biggest issue with them is their ability to kill infantry with out giving them time to react. It is just a bad mechanic all the way around IMO.

I was hoping for HMGs before release as you mentioned chip, and would love to see them go that rout. I would hate of they gave all maxes shot guns though lol.

The thing is that against another max unless you have 1-certed into extended mags or 2-have purchased grinders a nc max is unable to kill another max without a reload. Truly SOE just needs to scrap the shotguns for nc max and give us a line of railgun HMGs.

Assist · 2013-07-04, 01:22 PM

Originally Posted by ChipMHazard

The Scattermax will never be properly balanced as long as SOE sticks to their insanely short TTK mentality, imo.

Fixt for you!

Sea of Ink · 2013-07-04, 11:35 AM

Uh... wha??? I'm sort of incredulous here. Yeah, let's nerf the MAX that's already not the best. Makes perfect sense.

I play both VS and NC MAX. My score per minute w/ my ZOE is 407. It's 304 on my NC. I don't play TR MAX, so I can't comment on where it falls. But the VS MAX is far superior to the NC.

Maybe get out and play other factions more in-depth, don't be a complete homer, and then comment on balance?