Warez: A discussion

[Hamma]

I think it's illegal, and should be stopped. On the other hand I am a realist because I know it cant be stopped.

[Ouroboros]

*cough* Halo(evaluation version) *cough*

[Spee]

I buy the Cd's with the songs I download on them, if I have the money. The music industry has made FAR more money off of me, then they have lost.


However, regarding warez, I only use them because its outlandish that I have to pay fitty bucks for it. In teenager terms, 50$ = assload of money. Seriously. Im not gonna piss that away on something that I may or may not like, and cant take back. If you think thats wrong, you need a firm whacking on the skull.

[Happy lil Elf]

As I said before, save the justifications, because there are none. Pirating a game is the same thing as stealing a TV. Now personally I don't give a shit what other people do, so if you want to steal, fine. Just be damn sure you're not doing it to me and you can rob people to your hearts content. Dont' try to justify it with lame excuses though, just say "Yeah, I'm a thief, as long as I don't get busted, so fucking what?".

[Phaelon]

The size of the hole is irrelevant, I was stating the truth, Since the dawn of games on computers, there has been warez and trafficing.

Stealing is stealing, i will not argue that point with you, but the way in which they are confronting the problem, and the way in which they envision to fix it, will not work, would never work, and was screwed the second they concieved it.

[Cyanide]

By that same logic:

I would love to have a 42 in flatscreen HDTV. I am not, however, willing to pay the price for one of them. Now Bob, my imaginary next door nwighbor, has one so if I happen to go next door while he's out of town and take it then I can have what I want. Sure, Bob is out some money, but lets be honest, Bob next door makes over 500k a year he can easily afford to go buy another one so it's not like I'm really stealing it, right?

That is possibly the single most ignorant unfounded and rediculously stupid analogy i've ever seen in my entire life. It does not apply to warez, at all. First off, a TV is a physical object, software is a logical object. I can not walk into a store and make a copy of a TV. I can however break into your computer and copy your entire hard drive over night and you would never notice. Why? Because it does not involve me removing anything from your possession. You lose absolutely nothing. Warez does not involve taking anything from anybody. Nobody loses or has to replace anything because you made a copy of a program. If you could go to bobs house and copy his TV, then that analogy would apply to warez. But then it wouldn't support your argument very well.

Wrong. Theft is theft, you moron. You are not entitled to Photoshop, or any other product. If you want to steal it go for it. But don't try to make lame excuses or justify it. In the end after all the wriggling and playing around with semantics and imaginary situations, you're still a theif. Skip the bullshit and just say "Yeah I'm a thief, so?".

Actually there's quite a grey area when it comes to software. Stealing something involves removing it from somebody else's possession. In the case of warez, nothing is being removed from anybody's possession. So no, he or anybody else who has warez, is not a theif. Theives take things. Warez takes nothing. That is the difference, and it is a big one. I know that new concepts like this are hard for some people, but I have faith in you.

If it was possible to make copies of a Ferrari at no expense to anybody, why shouldn't everybody who wants a Ferrari have one? The Ferrari's that are copied can't drive on the 4 lane highways (as you can't play most warezed games online), but you can still have one if you want, and nobody loses. Please, I ask again, provide to me some evidence as to how anybody loses when I copy a peice of software that I can't afford anyway.

Perhaps this word "copy" is foreign to you. I'll attempt to demonstrate. Select this text, now hit control-C. Now open notepad and hit Control-V. You have just copied my text. But see, the original text is still here. Isn't that magical? And you can copy it over and over and over, and the existing copies never go away or move or are affected in any way, no matter how many times you copy it. Do you get it now?

I think you just don't want anybody to have anything they can't afford, even if they aren't actually taking, hurting, or otherwise detracting from anything or anyone in order to obtain what they want. You must be a rich bitch.

[_-Gunslinger-_]

Ok then madcow time for you to flech out your argument. How is it twisted logic if I were to NEVER buy it either way?

Happy lil Elf did you even read the last paragraph of my previouse post? I admitted TWICE that it was theft! Or were you too busy ranting and getting all worked up to notice both of those admitions? Earlier you also stated that there is no statistical proof, I am here to say that there is only ONE game I have ever warezed that I would have bought, Hitman 2: Silent assassin.

[Fragmatic]

Click me

[Happy lil Elf]

Looks like this might take awhile so we might as well get started.

The size of the hole is irrelevant, I was stating the truth, Since the dawn of games on computers, there has been warez and trafficing.

Incorrect. The size of the hole determines how much damage is being done and thus what kind of backlash it will cause.

Stealing is stealing, i will not argue that point with you, but the way in which they are confronting the problem, and the way in which they envision to fix it, will not work, would never work, and was screwed the second they concieved it.

I've never argued that they aren't going about it the wrong way. There is no way they are going to stop it with lawsuits, I completely agree.

That is possibly the single most ignorant unfounded and rediculously stupid analogy i've ever seen in my entire life. It does not apply to warez, at all. First off, a TV is a physical object, software is a logical object. I can not walk into a store and make a copy of a TV. I can however break into your computer and copy your entire hard drive over night and you would never notice. Why? Because it does not involve me removing anything from your possession. You lose absolutely nothing. Warez does not involve taking anything from anybody. Nobody loses or has to replace anything because you made a copy of a program. If you could go to bobs house and copy his TV, then that analogy would apply to warez. But then it wouldn't support your argument very well.

Weak attempts at flames aside, there is a problem with your entire premise. Software or music is a product just as a TV is. That one has a physical manifestation is irrelevant. Under your theory software programmers, musicians and numerous other professionals should be paid nothing as they are, at least under your twisted logic, producing nothing.

We have copywright laws for a reason. That various people ignore them is beside the point. It is still breaking the law, you ignorant jackass.

[quote]Actually there's quite a grey area when it comes to software. Stealing something involves removing it from somebody else's possession. In the case of warez, nothing is being removed from anybody's possession. So no, he or anybody else who has warez, is not a theif. Theives take things. Warez takes nothing. That is the difference, and it is a big one. I know that new concepts like this are hard for some people, but I have faith in you.
[quote]This is where you're right. There is a gray area however that grey area is quickly becoming black and white because the issue has become larger in recent years. In the end though, there are laws governing intellectual property, which software and music both fall under.

If it was possible to make copies of a Ferrari at no expense to anybody, why shouldn't everybody who wants a Ferrari have one? The Ferrari's that are copied can't drive on the 4 lane highways (as you can't play most warezed games online), but you can still have one if you want, and nobody loses. Please, I ask again, provide to me some evidence as to how anybody loses when I copy a peice of software that I can't afford anyway.

How you can not see the hole in your logic I will never understand. A shitload of work goes into the disign and creation of a ferrari. By letting anyone who wants one have one the company who designed and built the first one is hurt. Tell me, you fucking jackass, if you spent years working on something, sold one, and then found out everyone copied the one you sold and thus had no further use for your product would you feel you had been robbed? That's what I thought. Idiot.

I think you just don't want anybody to have anything they can't afford, even if they aren't actually taking, hurting, or otherwise detracting from anything or anyone in order to obtain what they want. You must be a rich bitch.

Wrong you fucking jackass. Maybe you missed the part where I said I really don't give a shit what you do, as long as it doesn't affect me. Here let me quote it for you, you semi-literate fuckstick:

Now personally I don't give a shit what other people do, so if you want to steal, fine. Just be damn sure you're not doing it to me and you can rob people to your hearts content.

Now next time, even though I know it hurts your tiny little brain oh so much to do so, think before you speak.

Warez does hurt people, you flaming fucking moron. Or rather, specifically it hurts businesses. However what do those businesses employ? C'mon, you can do it. It's those things that *work* at said businesses. That's right! I knew you could do it! People.

The argument of "Well, I wasn't gonna buy it anyways" doesn't work. Why? Because then everyone can say that and guess what? No sales, no money to pay people, business goes under. It also doesn't change the fact that it's illegal.

Don't believe that can happen? Do some research on Black Isle. Blatant copying is cited as one of the major reasons they went under.

[_-Gunslinger-_]

Happy didnt you say:

This is pure conjecture on both sides. I seriously doubt "that a good majority of those who hear the song or play the game once Warezing it won't buy it anyway". I also seriously doubt that everyone who downloads a game/CD would go out and buy it if they couldn't download it. Neither side has any hard numbers or evidence, so statistics are made up to support the argument of whoever happens to talking.

And yet you still argue:

The argument of "Well, I wasn't gonna buy it anyways" doesn't work. Why? Because then everyone can say that and guess what? No sales, no money to pay people, business goes under. It also doesn't change the fact that it's illegal.


You stated that neither side had any facts and still argued that warez is killing companies. Black Isle is still plagued by many issues as well.

Its a single playergame, I will never pay an agrediouse $50 for a SINGLE player game unless it will at some time come to a multiplayer world. Even if you took warez away I would not make that purchase. Most warez people at my school felt the same way. Black Isle assumed that the buisiness market was going to pay for thier game however thier second release of Baulders Gate was utter crap, all it had was an involved plot. But that isnt enough to draw sales, you need newer features and a more complete RP element to it. Yes this asks for 3 total games in one but that just adds to a singleplayer replay value whitch is the largest factor of a single player game. Allow me to give and example:

I downloaded Max Payne 2. My friend bought it. He played through ONCE, as did I. That game was trash and had I had full information of how little they added from the original I would have stopped my friend from buying it.

The point I am trying to show is that Black Isle went into a very low yield market, with BG2 being what BG1 SHOULD have been. I felt extreamly offended that a company would take my $50 dollars with promises that I would get to play an AD&D experience in a Computer RPG and not allow me past 86,000 exp thus limiting my game play. On top of that the evil side of the game (BG1) was so poor that I didnt even continue past the third chapter, it just felt like the same game except I stole what I needed and was hated by the town guards.

If I wanted interesting plot developements I could have went to boarders and purchased some Fantasy books for much cheaper.

Please, this goes to everyone, can we TRY to keep these posts flame free?

[GreyFox]

I only use warez to try games out. If I like the game, I will buy it.

Sometimes I download a game I've preordered. To get it as early as I can.

[Madcow]

Originally Posted by _-Gunslinger-_

Ok then madcow time for you to flech out your argument. How is it twisted logic if I were to NEVER buy it either way?

Happy lil Elf did you even read the last paragraph of my previouse post? I admitted TWICE that it was theft! Or were you too busy ranting and getting all worked up to notice both of those admitions? Earlier you also stated that there is no statistical proof, I am here to say that there is only ONE game I have ever warezed that I would have bought, Hitman 2: Silent assassin.

You are a walking contradiction. How is it twisted logic if you were never to buy it either way? You then turn around and admit illegally downloading a game that you would have bought. Oh, sorry, your argument just crapped out!
The point is that if you download it for free, and then use the program a whole bunch, what is there to make you then be honest and actually pay for something that you're using? Since you've already admitted with your Hitman 2 comment that you can't be trusted to be honest, it's kind of a silly argument isn't it?
If you were never going to buy it anyway, don't use it. Pretty simple. Unfortunately, whether you would use it or not truly isn't relevant because you aren't paying either way.

[_-Gunslinger-_]

Originally Posted by Madcow

You are a walking contradiction. How is it twisted logic if you were never to buy it either way? You then turn around and admit illegally downloading a game that you would have bought. Oh, sorry, your argument just crapped out!
The point is that if you download it for free, and then use the program a whole bunch, what is there to make you then be honest and actually pay for something that you're using? Since you've already admitted with your Hitman 2 comment that you can't be trusted to be honest, it's kind of a silly argument isn't it?
If you were never going to buy it anyway, don't use it. Pretty simple. Unfortunately, whether you would use it or not truly isn't relevant because you aren't paying either way.

Way to use that as a scapegote out of our little discussion. BTW I did buy hitman2 but it was only $10. And when did I LIE? I admitted to having only downloaded one game that I would have bought. However thats not lying. I had intended to mention that I indeed had payed for it but simply forgot. You still havent answered my prevoiuse question...

[Phaelon]

Black Isle went under for a number of reasons, many deal with things you and I don't know because Interplays records are not public. One of those reasons is copying, but it is not the only reason, there are huge amounts of other reasons.

Don't tell me a companys game being copied is why they went under, that is bullshit. A company goes under because of Poor business descisions AND thier games being pirated. Both have to occur for a company to really hit rock bottom.

[Madcow]

Originally Posted by _-Gunslinger-_

Way to use that as a scapegote out of our little discussion. BTW I did buy hitman2 but it was only $10. And when did I LIE? I admitted to having only downloaded one game that I would have bought. However thats not lying. I had intended to mention that I indeed had payed for it but simply forgot. You still havent answered my prevoiuse question...

Your previous question? No problem.

I enjoy editing video. It's just one of those things I enjoy personally. Unfortunately, it's something that costs an awful lot of money to do well. To put together an editing suite that is capable of doing a good job costs an awful lot of money. Obviously, I have the ability of renting time at a company which makes these editing suites available which would in turn cost significantly less than the up-front money that buying the equipment would cost me. I also have the option of doing a worse job using the equipment that I have available to me. Now let's say theoretically that I knew of an editing suite somewhere in my city that was left unlocked on the weekends. Not only that, I knew for a fact that there was no security at the building. Rather than making my crappy videos with the equipment I have available, I should go ahead and use that editing suite that I know I can get access too, right? As an added bonus, even if I somehow end up with the money to buy equivalent equipment I really won't need to and can spend the money elsewhere and buy other things since the access to the equipment has eliminated the need to actually purchase it. Are you having trouble drawing the correlation? It's actually pretty simple. You know where the building is, you know security is gone, you're happy to take something that others worked hard to create.