MAX Balance

[Robert089]

Honestly I think the Burster is fine, I mean the Striker is probably the best empire specific anti air so we have those to back up our MAX units. The Striker also has the "psychological effect" that the Sparrow and Starfire have.

As many others and myself have stated before the problem is with the abilities. There are VS MAX units hopping up and down like rabbits in generator rooms and stairwells while our MAXes either sit in one spot or paint themselves with a massive target.

[The Desert Fox]

Originally Posted by Azellon

The fact that you don't use AA MAXes (your own admission) underscores your ignorance of this issue. Learn to use the weapons you're trying to talk about first.

Your going to accuse me of being ignorant? Really? Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. If SOMEONE would please go back and look and my posts, I didn't even start in this thread with our MAX units, my original argument was of the frustration of the missile lock of the vanu and NC. You azellion then changed the topic to the AI maxes and I actually somewhat agreed with you. Then you insulted me, and when I picked apart your entire arguement about how "amazing" the TR AI maxes(for the record I have had the AI cert since day 1 and I love it, my complaint was never that our suck, just that about "ability" is kind of a joke nowadays) are you changed the topic again with me to "if I like the them so much why don't I join em cause Waa, Waa we don't have pop". I then countered your little pity me story, so you again change it up with how "in the shooting range, your AA max is waaaay better then everyone else's". I believe after even you realized how stupid that argument sounds you go back to how much better the TR AA maxes are and the NC and vanu require luck with their lock on ability.

the fact that you can't even defend half the points you are trying to make(at your own admission with your constant changing) completely proves your ignorance of this issue. Learn to read peoples posts before calling them ignorant.

And traak and sobeokus, I completely agree but just because it's a big psychological weapons doesn't mean it's not still a big one.

[Azellon]

Originally Posted by The Desert Fox

Blah blah please allow me to prove that I can't follow my own arguments kthx.

And I think you did a fine job.

The OP made MAXes the topic with his post. My initial reply was directed to him. My next reply was also not directly pointed at you, but you decided to take exception to something I said and get your panties in a twist. I'm going to guess it was the part about "you're doing it wrong" though to be honest, I stand by my statement. If you are dying that easily as a TR MAX, you are indeed doing it wrong or you're simply up against too many enemies and would be dying no matter what MAX you're in. You claim I changed the topic and in so doing have demonstrated that you missed the point: The thread is about MAXes. Not one type of MAX.

That said, since you want so desperately for me to address all of the fine points you made, let's have a go.

Originally Posted by The Desert Fox

Let me ask, when I am guarding a tower or even a hallway, or in the CY. What am I supposed to get behind? If I were an infantryman, I see a TR max I hit him with a deci, and I see he is disengaging to run, I then follow him and shoot him in the back while he attempts to "get behind something". This is a 1v1 situation, what about a fireteam with Decis? Hes dead before he disengages.

The best way to fight a guy with a Deci is to get in his face. Rockets have a splashback. If he follows you, stand right on the other side of the door/tree/whatever and shoot him when he comes through. He'll kill himself if you don't do it for him. If he's too far away, go elsewhere. If you're anchoring in the open with no cover and no fire support, you're an idiot and you deserve what's about to happen.

Originally Posted by The Desert Fox

I just don't see that, I see how they were DESIGNED to be that way, but in a war where one side has a lot more tanks then the other side, doesn't mean they have much of an advantage if the other side's infantry all have Javelin Missile Systems.

The TR have the equivalent to the Javelin, a lock-on fire-and-forget iirc. You want to take that out? Please do, it would increase my lifespan against TR in the field. The NC Phoenix is an even bigger pain, being camera-guided. Nothing sucks more than getting shot from behind a wall and there's not a damn thing you can do.

Originally Posted by The Desert Fox

I have never doubted the TR's offensive ability, IMO the TR maxes are BETTER on the offensive because of our overcharge thing. That's not the complain here. The problem is supposed special ability to lock down is really useless compared to the NC shield or the Vanu jumpjets. There ability have real, practical use, especially in combating AV.

You get TWO special abilities, one useful for defense and one for offense, and you're saying in this very paragraph that one of them is the bee's knees. NC and VS get one special ability that has to suffice both on defense and offense. While I agree that VS hopping to avoid getting shot is kind of lame, the MAX capacitor is small and recharges too slowly to be effective in heavy combat. Any perceived advantage is vastly smaller than it appears to be.

You've stated that your sole complaint is that NC and VS MAXes are frustrating. Well yeah, getting shot at tends to be kind of frustrating. Knowing that you're getting shot at before you're hit is bound to be slightly more frustrating, since you have warning and now you only have to wait for the pain to begin. But you're calling for nerfing the NC and VS MAXes by giving air vehicles a way to dodge a weapon's lock. As has been demonstrated, it requires more shots per clip size to get a kill than for the (supposedly) equivalent TR MAX. If even ONE misses, in many cases, VS and NC have no chance since opposing pilots can just turn around and fly away while VS and NC MAXes are stuck reloading. TR MAXes don't give you a nifty little warning, the pain starts suddenly and if the MAX was smart enough to anchor or hit their overcharge (again, TWO special abilities) you're probably most of the way to dead before you can react.

Yeah, the warning you get that I'm gonna start shooting at you is such a pain in the ass. Let's get rid of the noise weapon's lock makes.

[Peacemaker]

So, as if to prove a point outfit mates were playing VS tonight. I joined in and got into a AI max. WOW. I never got the opportunity to use that thing in a good fight, all I can say is that it is INSANE. Ive used DC max for a Looooong time. Never before had it been so easy for me to just mow people down. I'm sorry but that thing is insane when put next to a DC max. If anyone was at the solsar tech plant fight tonight on either side please let me know. I litterly got 20 kills in 5 minutes with little or no trouble. Aim, pull trigger, dead.

Also I escaped the base several times in AA config and had no problems scoring kills on several aircraft each time. This is in the middle of a red alert siege. Try to escape in a burster max... its not happening. Like i said in my first post. If you think these things are balanced at all, your fooling your self. Ima play uni max on all 3 empires for a few days at a time, take down my K and average them out. So far (and my mates agree) it seems like Vanu are almost skillless to play. Pulsar was omg awesome btw. I aint never shootin a cycler again if I don't have to.

[The Desert Fox]

Originally Posted by Azellon

Blah Blah Blah, your right Fox I am an ignorant moron.

Why thank you Azellon finally we can agree on something. Now let us begin. At no point did I say I was dying as a TR max, once again go back and look I love my max, I only pointed out that our lock down ability is inferior to the NC and VS ability's when it comes to being an "advantage".

Originally Posted by Azellon

The best way to fight a guy with a Deci is to get in his face.

Originally Posted by Azellon

Yeah you're a sitting duck if you come across someone who is quicker with their Deci than you are with disengaging your anchors and getting behind something, but if you're quick that doesn't happen all that often unless there's nothing to get behind.

tsk tsk tsk azellon, contradicting yourself again, so what SHOULD I DO? I agree that the best way to fight a Deci is to rush him, but you yourself said a good max is quick enough to get behind something. hhhhmmmm...

Originally Posted by Azellon

The TR have the equivalent to the Javelin, a lock-on fire-and-forget iirc. You want to take that out? Please do, it would increase my lifespan against TR in the field. The NC Phoenix is an even bigger pain, being camera-guided. Nothing sucks more than getting shot from behind a wall and there's not a damn thing you can do.

Haha this comment is awesome, really shows you either have no idea what I meant by what I said, or you have no real reply to it. I have no desire to remove AV from the game, I think it all fits perfectly, but when when they put it all in I don't they planned for it being 8 years later and 90% of the pop certified some sort of AV. I'v been in the army for over 2 years now, and I am lucky enough to be the Certified Javelin gunner for my platoon. So out of about 40 soldiers, I am the only one who knows how to use it. Means armor can still do work on a platoon of infantry but guys like me are designed to help combat it. Now if all 40 of us Carried Javelins, well that would really make any sort of armor useless in any fight wouldn't it?

Originally Posted by Azellon

You get TWO special abilities, one useful for defense and one for offense, and you're saying in this very paragraph that one of them is the bee's knees. NC and VS get one special ability that has to suffice both on defense and offense. While I agree that VS hopping to avoid getting shot is kind of lame, the MAX capacitor is small and recharges too slowly to be effective in heavy combat. Any perceived advantage is vastly smaller than it appears to be.

Okay, I will give you this one, we do have 2, and I love 1 of them, but it's just like you said, any perceived advantage is a lot smaller then the disadvantage of being completely immobile. YOU WIN THIS ONE TREBECK!

Originally Posted by Azellon

As has been demonstrated, it requires more shots per clip size to get a kill than for the (supposedly) equivalent TR MAX. If even ONE misses, in many cases, VS and NC have no chance since opposing pilots can just turn around and fly away while VS and NC MAXes are stuck reloading. TR MAXes don't give you a nifty little warning, the pain starts suddenly and if the MAX was smart enough to anchor or hit their overcharge (again, TWO special abilities) you're probably most of the way to dead before you can react.

Okay, you can't look at the missile as a warning, it's more of a "Your Fucked, Goodbye" then anything else, just cause we know our death is coming a few seconds earlier don't mean anything lol. While yes our flak doesn't give a warning I still don't believe it's a more liable means of anti-air. Our lock-down ability is the only way we have even a chance of killing something and if the pilot has any idea where hes at, he can jet over us within a second and were boned cause even your aiming is extremely limited while locked-down.as opposed to a VS or NC max who all he has to do is keep eyes on target long enough, and I have seen missiles follow me for what seems like forever through trees and mountains and shit only to STILL get blown to shit.

Originally Posted by Azellon

Yeah, the warning you get that I'm gonna start shooting at you is such a pain in the ass. Let's get rid of the noise weapon's lock makes.

I propose a trade, You can have our flak weapons and we will take your noisy lock-on missiles. I am serious here, I KNOW the majority of the TR agree with me, we would love some of those, and if our Flak is as good as you say it is then we haven't figured out how to use it properly and I am sure the majority of the VS agree with you. You can teach them. Deal?

[Effective]

Planetside as a whole is pretty broken. Balance is screwed up. The bases are narrow hallways with lots of choke points which do nothing but encourage spam. There's no cover outdoors for infantry to utilize against vehicles.
Silly base benefits like interlink that make defense way to powerful in PS.

The introduction of br40 has further showed what happens when something unbalanced (broken/poorly implemented) is used in mass.

In particular with max units. Every max in the game (including AA/AV) has a faster ttk than a rexo wielding decis. Max units as a whole may not be really powerful offensively (when pushing a active enemy base). But on defense they're extremely powerful.

It's some simple fixes really.

If someone doesn't like my idea(s), quote the parts you don't like and give constructive reasons on why they are bad. I'm not going to bother responding to someone who can't put out a constructive argument.

Add cover to outdoors. Remove the interlink benefit. Make bases less crowded and cramped, less choke points. Reduce the amount of cert points to a br20-23 level. Increase the cert costs on various certs (CE=3, SA=4, etc).

Keep in mind that EVERYTHING in PS is connected, like a huge web/net. When 1 thing is nerfed, something is inevitably made more powerful.

For example. The removal of third person is a slippery slope, if you remove third person, sure it'll be harder to corner camp, but NC will still be favored, since they just have to wait at a corner looking at the spot where the enemy is going to come in from, then charge out the moment they see something. This also applies to maxs. Not to mention cloakers with boomers will have a field day if TP was removed. I'm not saying I'm against third person removal, I'm just saying that if you do, make sure you figure out how to balance everything out related to it's use, first.


Make the max a suit with inter-changeable weapons. You can cert either AA (2 points) or AV (3 points) max first, but you must have 1 of them to cert AI max (2 points) OR you must have both AA/AV certed to cert AI max (1 point). This prevents maxs from being able to abuse the issue with a max being able to rotate between max armors to reset it's armor back to 650 and it effectively prevents players from just coming back to the fight in another max right after they've died. With the max armors being combined into 1 suit, reducing the timer on the max also becomes a viable option.

Reduce the effectiveness of AA/AV max units to infantry.

Bring the scatmax inline with other AI maxs. In comparison it's way to strong.

Make it so max units cannot use special abilities while auto running, which yes, means that VS max units won't be able to jumpjet while auto-running, and NC maxs can't use their shields. This brings the a bit more inline with TR maxs, who's special ability can't be used to increase survival while auto-running

Make it so max units can't shoot while using their abilities (this obviously wouldn't apply to TR maxs, as their ability is to shoot faster). VS maxs wouldn't be able to fire while jump jetting (but they could still fire on the way down, since they're no longer using that ability). - This particular idea I'm not 100% sure, it's an idea I've simply toyed with for a little bit, contemplating whether or not it'd truely be balanced.

Make it so max units cannot use personal shield (I'm more in actual favor of the complete and utter removal of pshield from planetside, but that's a different topic for a different day). Maxs already have 650 armor points, they don't need more.

Buff the AV max to do less self-damage (regardless of whether or not damage to infantry is reduced). Any person who uses a max constantly knows that if they get into an unavoidable fight with the AV max, the best thing to do is to get as close as possible and try to get the splash to kill the max, though this works best with NC max units. Doing this prevents said max from having any chance at another encouter like that, because he/she will suicide on the enemy max.
OR
Add a specific anti-max (AM) max (no explosive weapons just armor piercing rounds, think an AI max with AP rounds) to planetside. The last part gave me some thought, AV maxs aren't perfect since they can kill themselves depending on the scenario, so what if there was another alternative? A specific AM max could do what an AV max couldn't since, it could go toe to toe with more maxs in a row without having to worry about suiciding. However, I'm against giving the AI max AP rounds for 1 reason, and that'd be because it'd be to versatile.

On the note of the AV max, make them decent at there role Anti-Vehicle. The only AV max that's good at that role is the pounder max. The comet's projectiles are to slow, and the clip is to small for it to really be effective at AV, it is however a great Anti-Max max.

Make it so medical terminals can no longer repair armor, which means you have to rely on teammates to repair your armor as a max. With the removal of armor repair, med terms could heal stamina instead.

Give the decimator 1 extra round. This gives a single decimator a chance to actually kill an NC max with shields (keep in mind 4 deci shots can kill a pshielding fully shielded NC max IF you hit every shot into the max, rather then just splash him)

Finding a way to prevent maxs from autorunning into a wall so they cant instantly move forward at full speed when they leave the corner. The exact way to accomplish this is an unknown to me, other then "hitting the wall stops a max auto run". I don't particularly like that idea, there's probably more then a few ways to better balance it out.

Making a auto run capacitor that functions like the special max ability, but obviously on a different capacitor (maybe even have it set to where you can use your ability capacitor to double the length of your auto run if you use it all, def. NOT the otherway around though, twice as long max abilities? pass), I haven't thought up the exact distance for which the maxs capacitor would last (I'd say have it be a longer distance from tower to base, so that way max crashing is still a viable strategy), exact capacitor charge time would need to be discussed to, have it be the exact same as the max ability capacitor maybe? - Just another random idea I threw out there, not really needed for overall implementation. (Also, instead of an extra capacitor, it could use stamina instead).

Either nerf AP jackhammer or lancer, or buff the decimator so it's ttk is either the same or faster (I don't care which) then them. It's rather silly that the decimators (very specific anti-max weaponry, as it's to slow to be used anything but stationary/vehicles that are close, and even then due to the tiny clip size it wouldn't ultimately be useful) have a slower ttk then a AP JH/lancer. Though this might mean that the AP JH needs to be nerfed, though I don't think the lancer needs a nerf. - Also not 100% sure on this, there's probably a better way that I haven't thought of.

[Azellon]

Originally Posted by The Desert Fox

*hot air*

I knew I was wasting my time, which is why I hadn't responded in the first place.

Decent troll sir. 5/10.

[The Desert Fox]

Originally Posted by Azellon

Something stupid.

VICTORY!!! Twas a hard fought battle, with an almost worthy adversary Good Fight Sir, Good Fight.

In all honesty depending on your response to mine, I was ready to do the same. It's obvious neither of us are going to budge despite both our best efforts.

Better then some troll, 4/10

[Peacemaker]

So I just ran into a scat max in a DC max in a hallway. How come he out DPSed me and killed me, when I used my DPS boost? Broken much?

[Baneblade]

Scat does the most dmg of any MAX nose to nose.

[Peacemaker]

And that makes me think the balance is broken. The DC gets a DPS boost and it STILL Does not do the best DPS. Huh? Does no one else consider this ass backwards?

[Baneblade]

I think it has more to do with the TR being longer range in general than NC. The Scat MAX has to be in your face to be its most effective. The DC can sit on one end of a hall and still be 100%.

[Peacemaker]

True, but that just makes the DC an easier deci target. It still is borked. Also, because of the cof it does worse. The COF on the quasar is better than the DC.

[Baneblade]

I don't think MAXes should be in PSN personally.

[Jamini]

Originally Posted by Peacemaker

So I just ran into a scat max in a DC max in a hallway. How come he out DPSed me and killed me, when I used my DPS boost? Broken much?

That's because you have triple his range (and nearly quintuple his EFFECTIVE range). As a guy with a max user on each empire, I honestly suggest sticking to the pounder unless it's on cooldown. Provided you can lead, aim, and predict cornerhumpers, it's one of the best indoor setups you can have.

For the record my complaint is not necessarily the balance of the MAX's, mine was simply to give us fly boys something, ANYTHING to combat a missile lock, even if it's just for a second or 2. Every damn time I try to get into a fight the very second I see a missile lock, I hit the afterburner and hide behind anything I can find as I am running, and don't give me that "get better, L2P" bullshit. I am not saying I am great at it but it's ridicules that not matter what I do, In a Reaver I am almost guaranteed to lose half my health to a missile lock that had me for maybe 3-4 seconds. 2 nights ago me and a buddy were fighting the Vanu on Hossin. We would fly Reavers from Bitol to Voltan. Before we even hit the shoreline or saw the fight we had to fire off as much as we could and turn tail fast, because we would get missile locks from 3 different directions, Every single run we made no matter what direction we came from we got off maybe 10-12 rockets, and received 40-70% damage every time. This is when the majority of the fight was already in Voltan CY. This is from some Vanu Maxs flying atop some trees or a fucking mountain. and we can't even get a look before we had to run.
/endrant

Also, I find it ironic that aircraft want a way to break a missile lock.

Do the infantry you farm with your rockets have a way to totally block your damage for two seconds? Or even hurt you reliably without spending 5s changing ammo types (if they even HAVE a rocklet rifle in inventory.) No, not really. No.

Do the maxes you lolspam have a means to protect themselves from your rocket pods (excepting the VS AA max)? No, not really. No.

Should you really be able to run away from your hard counter, when everyone else who gets that close to their hard counter dies a horrible, horrible death? (Re: Infiltrators VS darklight, Assault buggies VS mines, Maxes vs good AV users, Infantry VS vehicles, Generators VS Routers.)

Air is the most powerful part of this game. You don't need any more help. You need nerfs, big ones.

Stop bitchin'.