No recerting

[Duddy]

Originally Posted by FortunadoAE

Good arguments, Duddy.

Diablo is indeed moving away from it, but I don't know if Diablo is a good model. It's almost an MMO but not quite there. Do they let you do this in WoW or EQ? I think those are better places to look.

Again, I don't think decerts should be taken out entirely, just the ease at which it's done. Make them a reward that you can earn, not a "Do cert management every 24 hours" chore. The worst thing you can put in an MMO is a chore without an attached reward mechanism. And that's exactly what cert management is now.

Well I know for sure that you can "re-cert" in WoW, and it is a relatively minor cost there too. More minor in fact. Which would stand against your ideals :P

I'm all for making it something you earn, possibly that might be something you could finally use outfit points on eh? At least for forget all re-certs, I think the standard re-cert timer should remain however.

As for it being a chore... yeah it is only if you are trying to re-cert everything without a "forget all". Which would be a good reason to make it an earn-able thing rather than sporadic and "random" occurrence.

Either way, I would prefer not to see re-certing become a trivial matter, it should take time to do. Either by slowly over time, or by spending time to build up a "forget all".

[FortunadoAE]

Originally Posted by Duddy

Well I know for sure that you can "re-cert" in WoW, and it is a relatively minor cost there too. More minor in fact. Which would stand against your ideals :P

I'm all for making it something you earn, possibly that might be something you could finally use outfit points on eh? At least for forget all re-certs, I think the standard re-cert timer should remain however.

As for it being a chore... yeah it is only if you are trying to re-cert everything without a "forget all". Which would be a good reason to make it an earn-able thing rather than sporadic and "random" occurrence.

Either way, I would prefer not to see re-certing become a trivial matter, it should take time to do. Either by slowly over time, or by spending time to build up a "forget all".

I didn't realize it was in WoW. Perhaps games are moving away from it.

I think you're right, then, about the standard forget system being kept. I'd still like to see a better twist on it though. Maybe a bigger recharge time but "rollover" forgets? The system now seems geared towards the obsessive, especially if you're doing a big change. I think TRex's cert switchout idea could curb that a bit, too.

Full-forget decerts would be great to keep around as outfit rewards. Maybe even a reward for crashing a galaxy or running a full tank into a minefield. "The guys have been thinking and, you definitely deserve the option to never drive a tank again!"

[CutterJohn]

I would go the opposite direction. Respec everything whenever you feel like(in sanc, of course). That eliminates the rules too. I have frankly never understood the point of the cooldown, and consider it an annoying and detrimental feature. So people will switch their roles up. And? Who is it hurting? Are you going to spend 10 minutes to go back to sanc, respec, and come back all the time?

Some days I just want to change my game up, and do not want to switch to an alt. Alts are for avoiding people on your buddy list in FPS games. Not being able to change up your playstyle.

I could also accept recert tokens being earned through various feats, milestones, and achievements, as well as accumulated daily. It would limit the supply, but at least the usage of it would be up to the player, rather than a set in stone limit. Maybe you go weeks with no or minor spec changes, and then just get bored one weekend and try a bunch of different stuff. Who knows.

[Goku]

No thanks. What game you are speaking of has no relation to PS:N.

[CutterJohn]

I'll respond to your no thanks with a no thanks of my own.

I know this is virtually impossible to answer, but if PS had no respec timer, would anyone suggest its inclusion for PS2?

What does it do for gameplay that makes it important? Not character building, or RP, since I care nothing for those, and people who do can not respec all they wish. No.. How does it adversely affect the fight?

[basti]

Suggesting that your choises of equipment are permanent is suggesting to force players to never try something out, and never respond to the player situation. ITs a very very bad idea.

Imagine, you are a grunt, got some cert points ready to spend, cant decide if you want to go engi, hacking or Med.
Currently, your side lacks hackers. Because you want to be useful, you choose hacking, and are now stuck with it.
Just days later, a bunch of other guys reactivated/certed hacking, and suddenly there are now more than enough hackers, but you start to lack medics. You are then stuck with a cert you almost never use, while you cant even recert to get the useful thing.

Bad bad bad idea.

[Lonehunter]

Originally Posted by DviddLeff

No way. All this will lead to is people having as many alts as possible.

[Goku]

Originally Posted by CutterJohn

I'll respond to your no thanks with a no thanks of my own.

I know this is virtually impossible to answer, but if PS had no respec timer, would anyone suggest its inclusion for PS2?

What does it do for gameplay that makes it important? Not character building, or RP, since I care nothing for those, and people who do can not respec all they wish. No.. How does it adversely affect the fight?

Sorry I wasn't responding to you, but the OP.

Though I do think there should be some kind of timer, so people can't go and and forth to get the equipment they need all the time. The 24 hours is excessive in my opinion that was originally in this game. The 6 hours is ok, but 3 hours could be a good middle ground. Lets you switch certs up a few times through the day, yet long enough to bar people from getting different certs through one fight. I will say I do wish there was a forget all option you can use once a month. I have found many occasions where I want to completely respec my character on the whim.

That was by far one of the best features in PS is the fact you are not stuck in one class thanks for the cert system.

[Nephilimuk]

hmm if it isn't broken don't fix it.

No cert changes just means locking people down. PS is fast paced keep it fast paced and give players choice.

The cool down period makes people think - keep it

[TRex]

Originally Posted by CutterJohn

I would go the opposite direction. Respec everything whenever you feel like(in sanc, of course). That eliminates the rules too. I have frankly never understood the point of the cooldown, and consider it an annoying and detrimental feature. So people will switch their roles up. And? Who is it hurting? Are you going to spend 10 minutes to go back to sanc, respec, and come back all the time?

I must admit it is great when you start a new alt now and you get a whole week to swap and change your certs out at will. A bit of a pain re-doing all your favourites, but that only takes a few minutes .

[MoreShiraz]

I've been lurking for quite some time, I was in beta and played until core combat/BFR's and I've been resubbing every year or so to explore the worlds in nostalgia. I got back into PS after the merge of the servers (Werner was dead) and I'm really pleased to see the population grow again to pop locks occasionally. Enjoying PS alot as it is today, good stuff - I love the unique call point of PS that a lvl 1 char can kill a lvl 40 in the right circumstances - no other MMO has that and it is PS's backbone.. If PSN is a rebuild I cant wait.

I have signed up to the forum on the basis of this thread because I think its an excellent conversation.

My thoughts are;

1. Allow complete recerts for the first week, allow recerts of top level skills within 6 hours - as it is.

2. Disallow 'forget' of lower certs to free up many points.

3. CHARGE a tiny fee for a class recert and maybe a small fee for a complete recert. Yes, its a micro transaction for a low fee. Lets give these guys some incentive to keep people on the team, to keep PSN moving, and to work to keep the will of the community implemented in code. Programmers have mortgages too...

I think Microtransactions are a good call - don't get rid of the sub, but use the microtransaction to deliberately keep the monthly very low in order to attract players and offer incentives to pay just that little bit more for "goodies". Respec is a prime example.

We could see lots of small microtransations for new hats, new cod pieces etc - lets generate some finance for the developers but lets do it to keep the sub low.

The worst mistake would be to offer combat advantages to microtransations. Keep the game level as it is, charge for respecs and aesthetic items and use this to keep the sub low in order to keep players playing.

I think a good mix between the Battlefield Heroes/Team Fortress Model and a subscription fee would go well. SOE could offer freebies occasionally, we could choose when to pay more and the player base would be maintained.

Oh and dont do Core combat/BFR's again

[wolfkrone]

I am so glad this will never happen. I hate classes.

[FortunadoAE]

Everyone: Read the thread! The idea's evolved a bit...

MoreShiraz: Microtransactions could be good for the health of the game. You're lucky nobody seems to read past the OP, or you'd be getting all the tomatoes being thrown at me.

I don't think this particular microtransaction would work, though. Planetside tends to eschew all forms of player-owned capital. Still, it's a good line of thinking.... makes me wonder where they would work.

[Geist]

Originally Posted by FortunadoAE

I'm not suggesting a change to the system. I'm suggesting getting rid of a system! When something is this big and entangled it becomes its own system.

It's unneeded complexity. The game should only be complex in areas where it really adds to gameplay, and decerting isn't one of those areas.

It's confusing to new players. It's a chore to old players.

It destroys your sense of character. Your character is a level, not a character filling a role. If you were describing your Planetside character to a friend, how would you do it? "Oh, he's uh... a level 25 guy."

But again, the social expectations thing is the biggest point. Give people permanent roles and you solidify teamplay.

I'm a little worried about you... If you think that uncerting and recerting are complex , then why are you on the computer at all? Why do you play Planetside.

There are plenty of things that are unnecessarily complex about PS, but the certification system is, at least IMHO, one of the best things about Planetside. It's simple, pay x amount of certification points for whatever. Forgetting is also simple, forget x, wait 6 hours.

I can support making the forget action longer, like once per week, and a BR cap of 20-25, but taking out the entire thing sounds like changing a integral part of the PS experience. And that's just wrong.

[FortunadoAE]

Originally Posted by Spectre

There are plenty of things that are unnecessarily complex about PS, but the certification system is, at least IMHO, one of the best things about Planetside. It's simple, pay x amount of certification points for whatever. Forgetting is also simple, forget x, wait 6 hours.

Well, that's part of the reason I conceded the point to Duddy a few posts back.

Also, remember that simple systems can still give rise to very complex behaviors. The constant, last-minute squad cert juggling act was a direct result of the seemingly simple cert system. Unintended consequences and all that.

A long timer, a lower level cap and TRex's dual personality idea would make a great solution in my opinion. Or instead of a timer, you accrue decert credits over time, up to a limit. (ie you get one every two days, and you can hold up to ten)