Certs & Customization - how it might look

[2coolforu]

The way I saw it with my examples is there are basically 'sliders' and the variants improve one while decreasing another.In the vanguard example it went like this

'Urban Infantry Support' - Vanguard Variant, All upgrades bought ( The scale is arbitrary and there simply to indicate relative strengths)

Defense
C.E. Armor (Defense against Infantry AV) 100/100
K.E. Armor (Defense against Tank cannons/SABOT) 40/100
Relative defense vs Infantry 100/100
Relative defense vs Vanguard MBT 40/100
Relative defense vs Vangaurd 'Tank-Killer' 0/100
Relative defense vs Vanguard 'Infantry Support N/A
Total Armor 70/100

Offense
Splash Damage 100/100
Damage against Infantry 80/100
Damage against Armored Targets 5/100
Damage against Air Targets 30/100
Total Damage 50/100

Mobility
Speed 80/100
Turning Ability 80/100
Turret Traversing speed 100/100

Visibility (0 indicates minimum relative visibility, 100 indicates maximum)
Urban terrain 0/100
Desert 100/100
Forest 100/100
Grassland 100/100
Snow/Tundra 50/100

'Tank-Killer' - Vanguard Variant, All upgrades bought ( The scale is arbitrary and there simply to indicate relative strengths)

Defense
C.E. Armor (Defense against Infantry AV) 40/100
K.E. Armor (Defense against Tank cannons/SABOT) 100/100
Relative defense vs Infantry 0/100
Relative defense vs Vanguard MBT 60/100
Relative defense vs Vangaurd 'Tank-Killer' N/A
Relative defense vs Vanguard 'Infantry Support 100/100
Total Armor 100/100

Offense
Splash Damage 0/100 (No Splash)
Damage against Infantry 100/100
Damage against Armored Targets 100/100
Damage against Air Targets 0/100
Total Damage 100/100

Mobility
Speed 60/100
Turning Ability 50/100
Turret Traversing speed 65/100

Visibility
Urban terrain 100/100
Desert 100/100
Forest 0/100
Grassland 0/100
Snow/Tundra 50/100


'MBT' - Standard Vanguard, All upgrades bought ( The scale is arbitrary and there simply to indicate relative strengths)

Defense
C.E. Armor (Defense against Infantry AV) 80/100
K.E. Armor (Defense against Tank cannons/SABOT) 80/100
Relative defense vs Infantry 80/100
Relative defense vs Vanguard MBT N/A
Relative defense vs Vangaurd 'Tank-Killer' 40/100
Relative defense vs Vanguard 'Infantry Support 80/100
Total Armor 85/100

Offense
Splash Damage 70/100
Damage against Infantry 70/100
Damage against Armored Targets 80/100
Damage against Air Targets 100/100
Total Damage 75/100

Mobility
Speed 100/100
Turning Ability 100/100
Turret Traversing speed 100/100

Visibility
Urban terrain 50/100
Desert 50/100
Forest 50/100
Grassland 50/100
Snow/Tundra 50/100

[2coolforu]

So the classic 'Vanguard MBT' is the most balanced all-rounder, it excels in being good in every situation. The two skill trees I theorized merely make these two variants better in one role at the cost being much worse in everything else.

The Infantry Support is for the outfit that want a close-support tank that can lay down a lot of anti-infantry fire power and retain good mobility and survive under strong fire from multiple infantry AV weapons, however it is not too good at fending off aircraft and it is very poor against enemy tanks so it desperately needs infantry to shield and protect it. It has a special upgrade that opens a third 'Tank Commander' slot who has access to a pintle-mounted .50 cal 'Heavy Gauss Rifle' that can be used to surpress enemy infantry.




The 'Tank-Killer' has high armor, high damage and zero infantry defense, it's low mobility means it is better for ambushing enemy vehicles at short range or engaging them over large distances. It's camouflage is meant to conceal it on the open plains and forest it's meant to operate within, it uses SABOT rounds that have no splash and lacks any coaxial machineguns or pintle-mounted defensive weapons, it simply has one massive cannon and special sights (Infrared) that allow it to operate extremely well in any weather condition.

Although its gun does massive damage it requires a direct hit, the projectile also travels very fast to allow engagement over long distances however the zoom is also extremely large providing a very small field of view restricting combat operations in dense, close-range environments. It's armor however is the strongest against heavy duty weaponry and it has a lot of health, it's vulnerable to infantry and air ambush.




The 'MBT' Vanguard classic is the most versatile, it has good splash with its 'HEAT' rounds and can do damage to infantry or armour, just not as efficiently as its counterparts. It's mobility and speed allow it to take part in main-force attack and it's coaxial 20mm provides protection against both infantry and light armor. It can be upgraded with a third passenger slot, the 'tank commander' which allows a Commander to operate an anti-air flak cannon, a pretty weak weapon (similar to a cerberus turret) however it gives it superior air-defense compared to the other variants and en-masse it can scare off lone reavers and mosquitos.


I think the skill trees should provide specialization and not just '5% more damage', specialization doesn't actually give any advantage as it imparts an overall disadvantage, but it concentrates all the vehicles power onto one area of attack providing a smaller role of operation but much greater efficiency. To be sucessful both Vanilla tanks and specialised tanks would have to be employed by an Armoured outfit.

[Rbstr]

Originally Posted by Vancha

Didn't they try this with the cycler or something, and it ended up being the opposite? Despite the ROF increase being better on paper, the burst damage of low-ROF/high-damage ended up being better (not in strict DPS, just generally better)?

Edit: Or were you talking in terms of a pure ROF/damage buff without any nerf?

No, you're right, a ROF decrease will raise DPS more than a Damage increase, at equal percentages, but there are other factors. Until you have time for the averaging effect to matter, more raw damage tends to be better. Basically, it depends on the size of your target (in absence of other factors).

Say you have enemies with 7 HP. And two guns that do one DPS:
One that does 5 damage every 5 seconds.
One that does one damage every second.

Who kills a single enemy fastest? The one with the hardest hit. He kills the enemy in 5 seconds (first shot, 5seconds, second shot, dead).
Who kills a whole ton of enemies fastest? The one with the fast ROF...he doesn't "waste" 3 of his damage on every enemy (which in effect means the low ROF dude does 7dps against 7hp enemies).

A real-game example would be EVE. Fleets that use artillery can kill giant targets in one fleet-wide shot, and then you have to wait a while for the next target death. Fleets that depend on lasers/hybrids don't do that, they have to put up with the target being their for some time, while it's getting shot.
Turns out it's better to remove instantly, even though DPS is lower. The enemy fleet can't effectively heal the target, among other things.

[Haro]

I'd love to see an experimental weapons cert, maybe available through an outfit bonus or something like that, that allows you to use a new variant of tank with powerful weapons but slow respawn time and maybe a few other shortcomings. Railguns for the NC, Metal Storm cannons for the TR...

I don't know what the hell the VS would experiment with. Bear cannons? Truly, I'm at a loss.

I like the idea of tanks upgrading to artillery. I always regretted the lack of a good, pounding artillery piece and the interesting dynamics it could have added to combat. Plus, it would get more bang for the buck out of the current vehicle pool.

Going beyond the vanguard, I think it'd be cool to experiment with other vehicles in changing their roles around. What if a deliverer (or whatever the PS2 equivalent is) could sacrifice its passenger capacity for a fairly large cannon, to become a lightly armored tank destroyer? What if a reaver could sacrifice rocket pods and add on a small passenger compartment and a few machineguns to become a light gunship/transport?

I really do think that modifying existing vehicles is the best way to approach fleshing out the spectrum of vehicles to include some really interesting choices. It would be more efficient in terms of development, and would allow players to really fine-tune their play-style.

[ArcIyte]

/necro

So do we know how certs are going to work? Is it going to be like battlefield, where you unlock everything and choose which equipment to use at the spawn screen? Or do we actually spend cert (talent) points and specialize your character?

[Lonehunter]

Nice ideas

But if there's gonna be a 150mm scattercannon the Prowler best be getting a giant 6 barrel chain gun

[DOUBLEXBAUGH]

Originally Posted by ArcIyte

/necro

So do we know how certs are going to work? Is it going to be like battlefield, where you unlock everything and choose which equipment to use at the spawn screen? Or do we actually spend cert (talent) points and specialize your character?

Unlock everything and choose what you want at the spawn screen/equipment terminal.

You have access to the base form of everything day 1. You can get a Vangaurd and a Reaver without using any certs, but need certs to unlock their upgrades, and then resources to get the upgrades. They also said there will be so many certs it will take year(s) to get everything, but eventually you can.

[Grognard]

Originally Posted by Volw

For example an engineering variant, with +200% HP with potentially extremely strong frontal armour value, -50% speed and an extremely short range 400mm howitzer, designed to push through heavily fortified positions.

OMFG I want to hear that... not that I even need to be on the same continent... "Big Bertha"... future style!

[Hark]

Originally Posted by DOUBLEXBAUGH

They also said there will be so many certs it will take year(s) to get everything, but eventually you can.

Are you sure ? Anyway, this sounds really good to me. I hate getting everything I want in a too easy way.

[BorisBlade]

Cool ideas man. One thing tho to keep in mind, currently the cert system is not specialization, you can get every single thing at once. Its just unlocks, there is no limit to what or how many you can get. It just opens up things you can use. So you would unlock the ability to get all that stuff and just switch up between them when you get your vehicle. I only say this cause many people think you would specialize into one thing/area or another, but you really just get it all. Somethin to keep in mind when comin up with ideas, esp since without actual specialization, your ability to use it as a balancing tool is much more limited.