The denied reproductive rights of males.

[Warborn]

The abortion debate is not worth engaging in. Everything has been said already. You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into.

[Vecha]

Originally Posted by Warborn

You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into.

Do you have a stance on it....and if so...do you find your "reason" on that stance "logical?"

I'd say both sides feel they used "reason" and "logic"....they just need to learn to respect the other side's belief.

[Warborn]

There is nothing I can say about the topic of abortion which has not been discussed in a more thorough and more eloquent fashion than anything I could muster by more intelligent and capable individuals. I, of course, have an opinion on the topic, but I don't believe that is relevant to this thread, and getting into it would only invoke a magnitude 8.7 shitquake.

Incidentally, respecting the other side's belief is actually not an issue. There are right and wrong answers here, because this issue has a very serious impact on around half of the population in whichever country you live in. You could no more say differences of opinion regarding abortion need to be respected as you could say differences of opinion regarding slavery need to be respected. This is one of those topics where the answer really matters.

[CutterJohn]

Originally Posted by Senyu

And here lies the dilemma, the right for life or the individual's desicsion. Both are right in their own ways. I don't know if this is something that can be solved in our time.

Indeed. Understanding this is something people on both sides of the debate are bad at. Aborting a fetus is really and truly killing what will one day soon be a baby. And an abortion is really and truly a woman doing whatever the hell she wishes to her own body. They are mutually exclusive.

I'd like to put advocates from both sides into a room, and they can't come out until they come up with a compromise that pisses everyone off equally(so you know its fair), and then that goes into the constitution so we can just stop talking about once and for all.

[Warborn]

Yeah okay whatever lets talk about abortion, male reproductive rights is a dumb topic anyway.

There is a compromise regarding abortion in the US already. Most states do not allow access to late term abortions, and "pro life" activists seem very keen on murdering doctors who attempt to provide them. In Canada there are no restrictions at all on abortions, and they're even covered by our universal health care coverage. Imagine if crazy religious fundamentalist Americans with more guns than sense were dropped into such a society.

Originally Posted by CutterJohn

Indeed. Understanding this is something people on both sides of the debate are bad at. Aborting a fetus is really and truly killing what will one day soon be a baby. And an abortion is really and truly a woman doing whatever the hell she wishes to her own body. They are mutually exclusive.

Eggs and sperm are potential fetuses, but you don't cry over millions of dead potential babies everytime you beat off, do you? A fetus during the first two terms has none of the qualities that we recognize as being characteristic of "people". And even if a fetus were a person or the "potential person" argument was worth anything (which it isn't), nobody has any obligation to surrender control of their body to ensure another person lives. You can't ever be hauled in to have an organ harvested or blood drained so that someone else might live.

[Vecha]

Originally Posted by Warborn

There is nothing I can say about the topic of abortion which has not been discussed in a more thorough and more eloquent fashion than anything I could muster by more intelligent and capable individuals. I, of course, have an opinion on the topic, but I don't believe that is relevant to this thread, and getting into it would only invoke a magnitude 8.7 shitquake.

Incidentally, respecting the other side's belief is actually not an issue. There are right and wrong answers here, because this issue has a very serious impact on around half of the population in whichever country you live in. You could no more say differences of opinion regarding abortion need to be respected as you could say differences of opinion regarding slavery need to be respected. This is one of those topics where the answer really matters.

I can respect what you are saying...but think the "slavery" comment is a bit hyperbole...but I suppose it fits seeing as both sides drop themselves into hyperbolic speech.

Also...I think respect is an issue...especially with people blowing up clinics over the said issue.

[Warborn]

It really isn't hyperbole. Denying a segment of the population basic human rights, like the right to control their own body, is tyranny. It's not as egregious as slavery, but it's recognized as a part of the patriarchy which once relegated women to second-class citizen status, as they still are in places like Saudi Arabia. The emancipation of women from being little more than brood mares for men is a major part of the women's rights movement as a whole.

As for respect, you think that because some of the anti-choice folks are blowing up clinics and murdering doctors and nurses that they deserve respect? Or am I misunderstanding you? That would really be a funny thing to say. Is terrorism something we as civilized people have decided to hold in esteem all of a sudden? Or does the fact that they're Christian terrorists make it alright?

[Firefly]

It's only terrorism if you're an Arab, particularly a Muslim. For everyone else, it's freedom fighting.

[Senyu]

Originally Posted by Firefly

It's only terrorism if you're an Arab, particularly a Muslim. For everyone else, it's freedom fighting.

It was freedom fighting when we supported and armed the Taliban agiasn't Soviet Occupation which pissed them off. Now their just pissed at us having bases there as well

[Firefly]

Originally Posted by Senyu

It was freedom fighting when we supported and armed the Taliban agiasn't Soviet Occupation which pissed them off. Now their just pissed at us having bases there as well

No. Most of the Afghans know that US bases are a source of revenue and security. Good jobs to be had for local nationals, money back into their economy from Joes giving them business, and the overall fact that we dismantled the Taliban and gave them back a measure of freedom. Not to mention the medical and dental services we give them for free, the construction we've done on their infrastructure and the basic improvement on their quality of life.

They're pissed that we accidentally or on rare occasions deliberately kill civilians. They're pissed that we did not completely and 100% eradicate the Taliban and al'Qaida. They're pissed that we have not provided them with a legitimate infrastructure across the entire country and that we propped up that idiot Karzai, who in reality is a complete and utter NIPPLE and is (I suspect) bought and paid for by the moderate side of the Taliban.

[Vecha]

Originally Posted by Warborn

As for respect, you think that because some of the anti-choice folks are blowing up clinics and murdering doctors and nurses that they deserve respect? Or am I misunderstanding you? That would really be a funny thing to say. Is terrorism something we as civilized people have decided to hold in esteem all of a sudden? Or does the fact that they're Christian terrorists make it alright?

I think those who are blowing up clinics should be locked away forever...and meant to use THAT example in a point that the Anti-Choice folks need to learn to calm the fuck down, respect the other side, and go on about their lives.

I'm "pro-choice" but can understand and respect those who aren't...until they want to blow up a clinc over it.


I can understand your point on slavery...and perhaps years from now they'll cite it as such...however this issue isn't going to go away anytime soon sadly.

[Warborn]

It's kind of gone away in non-USA-land. In Canada we have totally unrestricted abortions that are paid for by our health care coverage. Opinion polls on the subject are vastly in favour of maintaining current abortion policies. Now, our Conservative politicians sometimes make rumblings about going back to the stone age, where abortion is illegal or greatly restricted, gay marriage is illegal, and other such ridiculous policies from some Orwellian hellscape, but that's just pandering to the Baby Boomers. Give it another 30 or 40 years and people will stop even polling the public on the issue.

And who knows. Maybe, just maybe, the US can follow suit and get socially progressive for real sometime. And in that fantastic dreamworld, maybe even the "war on drugs" will end, so that we can legalize marijuana ourselves without fear of the US taking a huge shit over us for doing something they don't like.

[Firefly]

Bravo, sir. Bravo.

[VioletZero]

Female here.

I'm pro-choice and pro-child support.

Raising a child is difficult and ungodly expensive. There should absolutely be measures in place to prevent men from just backing out of it when it gets rough.

[Crator]

Vasectomy