Shooting looked so floaty and weak...

[Coreldan]

Originally Posted by Bags

Uhg. Am I the only person who doesn't want my gun flying all over the screen after firing 3 bullets?

You are not alone, judging from the video I guess there could be a tad more vertical recoil, but really not much. I'd say without the vertical grip it's pretty good.

But as said, the vertical grip needs a proper downside or it's just a netgain like it is in BF3. Most non-support weapons are pretty enjoyable to play with vertical grip in BF3 as the recoil isnt ridicilous.

Here's an M416 with vertical grip from battlefield 3. I honestly think it's fairly enjoyable to play with one cos it doesnt recoil ridicilously. At range you still can't full auto much if you care to hit something.

[Graywolves]

I liked the way the gunplay looked for the most part, just a few changes would be fine.

It's amazing how a few minor aesthetic changes will make things feel or appear completley different.

[Bags]

Core, I agree it needs a trade off for sure.

[DayOne]

Videos above are good. I think with recoil it's difficult because you sight bounce about and IRL how your weapon moves after you pull the trigger has an impact on accuracy.

For the sake of a game weapon recoil is okay just I'd prefer it to move about and not just go in a direction.

[Gortha]

Originally Posted by Bags

Uhg. Am I the only person who doesn't want my gun flying all over the screen after firing 3 bullets?

I think most gamers like challenging shooting mechanics more than "serious sam"/spray and pray shooting mechanics.

Player skill weights more with challenging ones.

[EVILoHOMER]

Originally Posted by Coreldan

Neither of them were good shooters, that caliber is not even a common full auto round just about nowhere in the world for that reason alone.

Now here is a professional with a caliber that one might actually use in a combat situation (nothing wrong with 7,62x51, but theres a reason its not used in assault rifles much anymore)

The second video you posted, the guy has probably never before fired a weapon judging from his stance or at least if he has gotten any firearm training, the instructors need to get fired.

AK-47 Full Auto - YouTube

How about another famous assault rifle caliber?

100 rounds in seven seconds from an M-16 - YouTube

I'm not for no-recoil, but the videos you showed are definitely what it should be either.

EDIT: Oh, heres the same gun than in the other video you posted and the same caliber as in both of the videos you posted, just with a much better shooter (note: you need to put it on 240p for sound to work):

FN Fal full auto - YouTube

Hey, moar!

Full Auto HK-G3 - YouTube

Problem is in real life you feel the power and hear how loud and powerful the gun is. You need to exaggerate it in a game to try and emulate how it feels in real life and in real life there are lots of guns with massive kickback and recoil, they're not all dead accurate.

[Coreldan]

Originally Posted by EVILoHOMER

Problem is in real life you feel the power and hear how loud and powerful the gun is. You need to exaggerate it in a game to try and emulate how it feels in real life and in real life there are lots of guns with massive kickback and recoil, they're not all dead accurate.

You are right about this one though.

Shit is just so much easier in real life. I'm a much better shot with real guns than in games :/ Just much easier when you have the actual muscles doing the job and not just where you move your palm

Hmmh.. We need mouses with vibration on them! Playing on gaming consoles can actually be sometimes more "oompfy" when the controller actually vibrates to shots and certain other things.

[EVILoHOMER]

Originally Posted by Coreldan

You are right about this one though.

Shit is just so much easier in real life. I'm a much better shot with real guns than in games :/ Just much easier when you have the actual muscles doing the job and not just where you move your palm

Hmmh.. We need mouses with vibration on them! Playing on gaming consoles can actually be sometimes more "oompfy" when the controller actually vibrates to shots and certain other things.

Yeah when playing Fight Night on the 360 every punch feels like I'm actually hitting someone because of the vibrate from the controller.

However playing Batman AC on the PC, I get that exact same feeling purely because of the amazing combat system and sound they've made. Bringing up Counter Strike again it really makes me feel the weight and the power of the guns. Even Unreal Tournament does it too and Gears of War, it's just good game design.

Play Gears of War and then play Saints Row 3 or Mass Effect and you'll just see how weak and unsatisfying the shooting feels in those games compared to Gears.

Play Counter Strike and then play Deus Ex and again you'll see the difference between good shooting and weak.


It's a very hard thing to explain but the feel of the shooting in a shooting game is the most important thing. Luckily the examples I gave of weak shooting all had other things to fall back on, however Planetside is all about the shooting.

[Coreldan]

I wouldnt go as far to say Planetside was all about the shooting though. I personally played Planetside DESPITE of the horrible gunplay (IMO) and avoided it at all costs, basically only playing support roles of different kinds. Like, the only shooters I play are with fairly realistic damage models (very low TTK, 1-2 shots just about anywhere drop you), Planetside is the only exception to that cos it really is so much more.

Anyways, I think I get what you are saying though. I actually came up with a few games myself where the shooting just feels like.. nothing and games where it really has the oompf-effect to it.

[EVILoHOMER]

Yeah I played Planetside purely because the battles were massive. However after 3 months that wore off for many people (myself included) and the CC was the last chance lots of people gave the game at the time. If the game had good shooting then we would have stuck around and never gotten bored of it like how CS is still one of the most played online FPS games like 12+ years later.

I know lots of people liked the game and played for years but lets be honest, most people quit Planetside pretty early on due to boredom and the rest followed with BFRs. I'm not saying you cannot go in and have fun if you like the game but you need people in Planetside to have the battles that the game is all about.

End of the day a competitive online FPS is all about the feel of the shooting.

[SniperSteve]

Modern semi- or fully-automatic weapons have very low recoil. (Some of the gas is used to work the casing ejection and cartridge loading mechanism, and there are other systems in place).

Anyway, the point is that if you are holding it right and you have some mass to you, you won't get much 'floating'. It should be quite steady, not "if I hold the trigger down I find myself at 45degrees into the sky".

Manual reloading mechanisms, like the pump action shotgun or a revolver, however, do have a high recoil and barrel jump.

[likwidneo]

I have to admit, as I was starting to watch the gunplay, I was thinking to myself "Well this SMG he's using looks really cool, but I think he should show off some Assault Rifles..." until you died and in your respawn screen it showed that you had a Carbine in your load out at which point i was like... "WTF? That doesn't look or feel like an AR?" Maybe it's all the pimped out specs you put on it, I saw the comment about the forward grip, but the fire rate also feels a little high for an AR...

[CutterJohn]

Gunplay looked fine to me. I dislike too much recoil. The sound could have been better, but it was a cam shot, so i'm not expecting miracles.


As per the front grip, guys, it doesn't need a direct downside. Remember that there are limited slots. The downside is not being able to fit something else there.

[Surge72]

Originally Posted by Coreldan

What downside does the vertical grip have?

That thing in BF3 is a huge netgain on just about every weapon, that is no sidegrade.

I would really like to see what Higby says on this. With them always denouncing upgrades and going on about sidegrades and little to no power gain, then this vertical grip MUST have a downside. Especially as Higby himself has just said it reduced recoil "quite a bit".

[Coreldan]

Originally Posted by CutterJohn

Gunplay looked fine to me. I dislike too much recoil. The sound could have been better, but it was a cam shot, so i'm not expecting miracles.


As per the front grip, guys, it doesn't need a direct downside. Remember that there are limited slots. The downside is not being able to fit something else there.

There's a few issues with this.

Then it really is no longer a sidegrade like theyve been talking all along. Players with vertical grip unlocked will always have an advantage over players who havnt unlocked it yet. It could be a very early unlock though.

However, I would also like to see not modding your weapon viable. I dont like the idea that you HAVE to use the modification slots if you want to be as good as you can be.

What if I just dont want to fit something in there to begin with?

Overall it would probably be better to have the recoil as low as it is with vertical grip now and make the vertical grip do something totally else, but still related. For example, faster switching to/from other weapons, faster brining up of ironsights, faster to be ready to shoot from sprinting etc, and have it have a downside of fe. slower reload or something else.

Recoil plays a fairly huge role in shooters. You are at a very direct disadvantage in BF3 if you dont have a vertical grip and the other player does. I just dont like the idea of virtually mandatory mods, those should just be baked in then and have the customization actually be just that, customization to the weapon what you would want it to be and altering it to fit your style, not altering it to be the cookie cutter to compete

I still think Brink probably had it best, where you always got a minor downside, if to nothing else but to the handling speed of the gun, if you put on modifications to the weapon that increased stats. For example in Brink, a vertical recoil would naturally lower vertical recoil, but decrease weapon equip speed and range. The range isn't that much of a realistic downside, probably just a balance thing. That said, the effect on range was fairly small anyways and it was the equip speed that got the biggest hit.

Cos frankly, with what we now at the moment (vertical recoil lowered signifigantly, no downside known for the time being), it's just like BF3 and I have to say that it is stupid design.

I think one should have the right to make the intentional choise to not use modifications too. Some weapons look better without vertical grips or nade launchers under them. And that choise shouldnt have to come at the expense of intentionally gimping yourself

In BF3 I have my very specific loadouts for different weapons, but funny thing is that vertical grips is common to all of them from assault rifles to snipers and to LMGs. Thats not good.

I rock at making walls of text out of minor things lol, but I have 30 mins I need to spend doing something.