Defining the role of Light Assault

[Knightwyvern]

Originally Posted by Dagron

I still don't see turrets leaving the hands of engis, no matter what one of them says (however important/competent he was), the majority of them won't want to hear it.

I agree that grenades could cause too much havoc, which is why i suggested utility grenades instead of dmg ones.

Agreed on both counts. More utility, less boom boom.

Turrets are innately defensive weapons; LA are an innately offensive class. Not a good mix.

[OutlawDr]

Originally Posted by Dagron

I suppose. Then perhaps giving them more utility grenades instead of more destructive grenades could work?

They already have flashbang and smoke grenades, so maybe slow grenades (sticky goo) or concussive grenades (low dmg, high knockback)... That kind of stuff.

I defiantly like them being more of a utility grenade class, since utility is what they are lacking.

[Sledgecrushr]

Im pretty good with how LA works right now. Im sure that the different jet pack variants will allow the LA to be played in many entertaining ways. I also dont really care for the la to be some kind of grenadier, either you will have a flying grenade spammer or it will cost too much to be of any real effect. What I would like to see is the LA be able to spec in dual wield and be able to carry a smg and a pistol, or two pistols at the same time.

[Grognard]

Originally Posted by DjEclipse

With the turret the LA has to be in harm's way to make kills. Even if he has the high ground, the grunt has some sense of (false) hope he can shoot LA dead.

Now an LA jumping on top of something to spam lethal nads while being inaccessible to that grunt's rifle, is just never going to fucking happen. It breaks the gaming mechanics. So no way will they ever get lethal nads.

I cant think when I am rolling on the ground laughing... yer killing me... doesnt there need to be an "E" in there...?

Seriously, though with much difficulty, I see what you mean, but Im after class synergy, a turret demobilizes the mobility class... In the footage, I saw an engineer fortifying a control point with a turret facing up a flight of stairs, and that was pure engineer tactics, to me...

I'm still dying of laughter here damnit...

[Dagron]

Originally Posted by Sledgecrushr

Im pretty good with how LA works right now. Im sure that the different jet pack variants will allow the LA to be played in many entertaining ways.

I suppose we can wait and see, since appearently beta is not too far in the horizon.

Anyway, i guess i better go to bed: i'm probably starting to get on people's nerves *cough*four hours ago*cough* with my constant posting and editing... But mostly because i'm getting sleepy.

[Electrofreak]

Remember, we've other roles that they could fill too. Spotting targets makes sense, and perhaps EMP bursts or other disruptive measures to cause a window of opportunity for their companions during an assault.

[Knightwyvern]

Originally Posted by Electrofreak

Remember, we've other roles that they could fill too. Spotting targets makes sense, and perhaps EMP bursts or other disruptive measures to cause a window of opportunity for their companions during an assault.

I might agree, however both of those roles are already taken by the infiltrator and I think they work pretty well in this role. Makes for some better combined arms/class diversity IMO.

Other than the grenadier thing though I can't really think of other good secondary roles for the LA.. working on it.

[TheInferno]

Actually, EMP grenades that do something like that would be awesome. It would fit right in with the flashbangs and smoke grenades they already have.

Bah, I'm probably just repeating myself. Sorry about that.

[Sledgecrushr]

Originally Posted by Dagron

I suppose we can wait and see, since appearently beta is not too far in the horizon.

Anyway, i guess i better go to bed: i'm probably starting to get on people's nerves *cough*four hours ago*cough* with my constant posting and editing... But mostly because i'm getting sleepy.

Good night brother.

[Grognard]

Originally Posted by Electrofreak

Remember, we've other roles that they could fill too. Spotting targets makes sense, and perhaps EMP bursts or other disruptive measures to cause a window of opportunity for their companions during an assault.

Spotting sure does, and has just as much synergy as a grenadier variant. Infiltrator ability for now, not sure about my opinion yet. Someone, not me, did suggest this, a few days ago... EMP is back to grenadier, though.

[Electrofreak]

Originally Posted by TheInferno

Actually, EMP grenades that do something like that would be awesome. It would fit right in with the flashbangs and smoke grenades they already have.

Well, Knightwyvern is right, EMP grenades already belong to Infils which will likely need them. As is spotting for that matter.

In my eagerness I may be adding too much opportunity for roles to overlap with my suggestions.

I still think LA would be useful for harassing enemy vehicles and aircraft though, given the fact that they're going to be outside most of the time and would be able to skirmish with them without too much trouble.

What we don't want to see too much of however, is LA becoming so effective outdoors that everyone uses LA when assaulting a base and then switches to something else once the fight moves inside.

[Grognard]

Originally Posted by Electrofreak

Well, Knightwyvern is right, EMP grenades already belong to Infils which will likely need them.

There is no reason to take them from Infiltrators to flesh out, and complete a "grenadier secondary" for LA. There are a few explosives that belong to more than one class. I wouldnt want to cross-class too much, so maybe the charger grenade might be better, perhaps not.

[Electrofreak]

Originally Posted by DjEclipse

I wouldnt mind all classes having EMP grenades cause PS2 is going to be BALLSDEEP in mines and spits. We Engys are evil motherfuckers.

I LOLed!

[Malorn]

Jetpack and rocklet - no thanks. The jump pads and jetpack alone are enough Quake for PS2, don't need to be adding in rocket arena along with that.

This is a good thread topic, however. LA is a class that didn't exist in PS2 and it's hard to nail down. The game has a lot more vertical gameplay and so a class exists to utilize that vertical gameplay makes sense, at least on the surface.

Here's how I see light assault - they're a skirmisher/flanker. That's pretty much it. Their purpose is to out-maneuver, harass, and get behind the enemy to help the main squad. At least in theory.

The challenge with LA is making them fit well into a squad. Infiltrator is another one that's difficult to pin down - both classes seem to be designed to be loners. However, the Infiltrator does offer some valuable benefits to a squad, namely the spotting and hacking contributions. They can also flank to a certain extent but don't pack the same hardware that the LA class does. If infils had shotguns and carbines then I think they would overlap heavily with the LA benefits. Only Infils can't easily get into places where a medic can't revive them. A LA that dies on top of a roof is SOL and his only hope is a squad spawn. And squad spawns have long timers, so that really doesn't scale well.

As a strong contributor of a large heavy-infantry based outfit, we have a hard time working LA into our plans. MAX, Medics, Engineers, and Heavy Assault are clearly valuable players for a squad. Infiltrators have a place in small numbers (like 1 in 10). Light assault are hard to fit in. Here are some key questions that I hope developers ask when understanding light assault:

1) Why would a squad want to take a light assault instead of another MAX, medic, engineer, or heavy assault?

2) Why would you take someone that by their very design won't stay with the squad?

3) Why take someone who's class design is to run off, go someplace that the rest of the squad can't follow, and then die off by himself out of revive range by a medic?

These questions illustrate why Light Assault is hard to fit into a squad. Their nature is to specifically not be among the rest of the squad, and if they aren't near their squad they may not be able to support their squad, and more importantly their squad cannot support them.

So in a heavy infantry squad, a light assault is difficult to justify. Previously we had planned to have roughly 1 light assault per squad simply due to ammo benefits, and perhaps they could man an engineer's turret when we needed to hold down a point while the engineer keeps the MAXes topped off. If ammo is moved off of Light Assault and not replaced with anything that provides clear squad benefit, that spot in the squad will immediately get moved to another MAX, Medic, Engineer, or Heavy Assault.

If Light Assault had unique grenades that brought situational and tactical value, such as smoke grenades, EMP grenades, flares, and other utility items then perhaps their mobility might justify bringing them. I know they have talked about smoke grenades and flash bangs and such being given to light assault, but essentially Light Assault just feels like a solo killwhore class to me. They don't really bring any clear benefits to a squad and are more of a liability than anything else. I'm also not convinced that tactical grenades will be enough.

Spotting is also something that I could see naturally valuable to a LA. They can get up high, get good views on surrounding areas. And if they're flanking the enemy that means they can spot the enemy and relay their position to the squad. That would be a valuable addition. But we need to be careful about giving them too many benefits that could be also used to make them a better solo class. Preferably they should be given abilities that only really benefit the squad and not themselves.

When I see LA mostly I just see a little bitch class that I know is going to annoy many players with their hit-and-run tactics. They'll be the guerrilla class that might pick off stragglers and be an annoyance but they wont often be the class that makes a difference at an objective. I'm not really looking forward to the class being in the game quite honestly.

Planetside is about a massive scale where teamwork is what prevails. LA is a class that has no real value for teamwork and so I basically see it as a poor addition to the game. I'm sure it's a fun class, of that I have no doubt. But I'm not sure it's good for the game. Unless they can give it something to help make them easier to res by a medic if they die in a bad spot and unless they give them something desirable to a squad I don't see it as something good for the game.

At this time I can't really think of anything good to give them. The ammo bit seemed good but had clear problems in making them even more of a solo class with no need for a supporting squad. Not having ammo means they are at least dependent on a squad for resupply (either the new ammo-giver or the infil to hack a console). At this point it seems like they'd just be shoehorning something in to make them useful to justify the "they're cool" aspect to the game. I know they're cool, I know they're fun, and to some perhaps that's a good enough reason. But BFRs were also cool. They were also fun. So simply cool and fun isn't a good enough reason for me.

Edit: The other problem I have with Light Assault is that it is clearly the class for the pilots, who can use the jetpack to bypass the need for a bail upgrade. Seems cheesy to me and defeats the purpose of the bail upgrade's tradeoff.

[Arcticus]

One concept for LA secondary function would be to drop ropes for Engi, med and HA to SLOWLY climb the side of a building.

I don't know if this is already in game, but LA should have the second fastest point capture rate (I imagine Inf should be fastest) if it's desired for them to have some function inside buildings.