Planetside 2 Needs Prone

[mynameismud]

Originally Posted by Stardouser

Hmmmm....if we can separate camping out of it I'd be interested to see exactly what you have in mind.

I was trying my best to say

ruined flow argument does not equal camping argument.

I mean that whether someone is camping, assaulting, or doing pretty much anything. If lying down is an option game flow will be adversely affected. Of course in my opinion.

Not from camping. from any use of it. but like i said imo.

[fishirboy]

Originally Posted by mynameismud

I was trying my best to say

ruined flow argument does not equal camping argument.

I mean that whether someone is camping, assaulting, or doing pretty much anything. If lying down is an option game flow will be adversely affected. Of course in my opinion.

Not from camping. from any use of it. but like i said imo.

people need to stop thinking that camping needs to go and that any one that camps are noobs, there using there skills as a marksmen from a distance. This is a skill not a noob thing and we should encourage it.

[Stew]

Originally Posted by basti

Lets make a list here. You pro prone folks have 24 hours to give proper arguments against the points made on the list. go!


1. Cloakers and PRone. Imagine a Infiltrator going up to a good spot, proning and cloaking. He sits there cloaked, shoots, and cloaks again. There is literally nothing you can do against him, as he got a extremly low profile.

2. Medics/engis and Prone. They simply chill behind, absolutly save from direct fire, and heal the guys up front.

3. Light assault and Prone: Would completly deny them the use of jumpjets, making the whole thing a rather nasty tradeoff. Mobolity is key for them, making prone absolutly useless for Light assault.

4. Defending and prone: Have fun trying to break a line of people just proning everywhere. Its almost impssible.

5. The zerg and prone: In planetside, heck, no, in EVERY game you have the problem that people are afraid of dying. Instead of Rushing, they just chill and wait around the corner. With prone, they have even less reason to move, as they have a smaller chance of killing a dude if they hop around the corner due to low profile, have more enemys shooting at them as prone allows 2 people behind one another to fire at you, and on top of that even gives a damn good reason not to move at all in the first place. The zerg would be proning EVERYWHERE, making Infantary engagments the most boring expirience ever.




Try to give arguments against these. I know you wont...

we already havefix all those situation in the previous post !

1 : Cloakers should have the cloak ability disable as soon as they go in prone position and not able to activate it while prone problem solve !

2: an ENG repairing stuff is mostlikely a way more in danger and expose in prone position than crouch since the tank serve as a cover while reparing

Medic cant spam a unlimited amount of health to is team mates and i do not get the point of a medic in prone position ad far as i know theyre is no huber charging ability in ps2 yet !

3: ligth assault will use prone whe he need it not to sit and sleep on the ground lol he will use it to take cover for a few second and he will go back to the figth so again i do not understand the point

4: having full people prone position defending a based ? GL , grenade and MAX will take them all out with ease ... problem solve

5: for this one its agains saying thats PRONE = Camping wich is wrong prone is just a standing position not a playstyle camping is a playstyle

[Cuross]

Originally Posted by basti

list

Haha, now that's just being mean. While I was proposing reasons why prone would be unnecessary you go and pull that :P Actually I only have one argument that would be proper and applies to all of them but would make playing the game very boring and more dull than all the zerg laying down. Just get a bunch of MAX suits with grenades or otherwise splash damage.

I actually didn't think about prone engie/medics, though. That's a scary tactic with them just crouched behind their team, it's nightmarish if they were prone.

[GreatMazinkaise]

This really is an argument over PS2's FPS identity. What is it? An objective-based FPS? A tactical shooter? A run-and-gun but with bigger maps? What do you want us to be when we're grown up?

This is the problem in a nutshell... myself and others want it to share the same identity as its predecessor (!= identical to its predecessor): a strategic, objective-based arcade shooter.

The FNGs want something "tactical", a term that oughta stay on the tabletop in games like Force on Force or Crossfire.

Some view hitting a stationary target in the head as a skill; I argue that hitting a moving target while also moving yourself is a more difficult skill to acquire.

[fishirboy]

Originally Posted by mynameismud

Adding prone to planetside 2 is like throwing mayonnaise on a pizza. If you like the taste of that garbage that's cool. Go to the pizza places you like that serve that garbage. But don't come to the pizza places ive gone to for years and start demanding i have to eat the pizza you like.

were not demanding were asking you to try it. and that mayonnaise may make it way better who knows maybe adding that and tomato sauce at it tastes like harmony of amazing.

[mynameismud]

Originally Posted by fishirboy

people need to stop thinking that camping needs to go and that any one that camps are noobs, there using there skills as a marksmen from a distance. This is a skill not a noob thing and we should encourage it.

I dont know any other ways to say that i am not concerned in the slightest about campers.

I am saying the flow of ALL combat will be adversely affected. ALL combat. not silly campers easily killed.

I am saying the pace of the entire infantry combat will be affected even if not a single person camps.

I have not complained about camping in not one of my posts. In my eyes camping is just defending, if your defending the middle of nowhere to snipe thats your business.

I am commenting solely on all infantry combat pacing.

[fishirboy]

Originally Posted by mynameismud

I dont know any other ways to say that i am not concerned in the slightest about campers.

I am saying the flow of ALL combat will be adversely affected. ALL combat. not silly campers easily killed.

I am saying the pace of the entire infantry combat will be affected even if not a single person camps.

I have not complained about camping in not one of my posts. In my eyes camping is just defending, if your defending the middle of nowhere to snipe thats your business.

I am commenting solely on all infantry combat pacing.

That is a good thing, a sniper is supposed to slow them down, to pin them down so they cant move, have there friends go around and wipe the infantry out, hopefully they have 50 cal to kill them tanks haha

[Stew]

Originally Posted by mynameismud

I dont know any other ways to say that i am not concerned in the slightest about campers.

I am saying the flow of ALL combat will be adversely affected. ALL combat. not silly campers easily killed.

I am saying the pace of the entire infantry combat will be affected even if not a single person camps.

I have not complained about camping in not one of my posts. In my eyes camping is just defending, if your defending the middle of nowhere to snipe thats your business.

I am commenting solely on all infantry combat pacing.

the LOL thing about thats is try to convince me thats u say is true since ive experience 2 games one with 64 players and the other with 256 players with a prone mechanics thats dosent affect the pace and the flow of the game at all !

Show me some exemple describe some situation thats actually take your mind setting and expose thats to us !

[Khrusky]

Originally Posted by basti

1. Cloakers and PRone. Imagine a Infiltrator going up to a good spot, proning and cloaking. He sits there cloaked, shoots, and cloaks again. There is literally nothing you can do against him, as he got a extremly low profile.

This is the same issue as someone doing the same in good cover whilst crouched. the amount sticking voer the top of the cover will be the same as that you could see while prone. Prone gives you more positions you can do this from, but it is no harder to respond to.

You should not be trying to out-shoot a sniper, you should out-manoeuvre them. Once you're standing on top of them, prone or not makes little difference.

Originally Posted by basti

2. Medics/engis and Prone. They simply chill behind, absolutly save from direct fire, and heal the guys up front.

Having a lower profile does not make you all-around safer, it's situation-specific. You are a bigger target to aircraft and less mobile so weaker to AoE weaponry. You also can't be helping your whole squad if you're not moving towards them. If they're not moving then you don't need to, but usually in that situation your squad isn't achieving much anyway.

Originally Posted by basti

3. Light assault and Prone: Would completly deny them the use of jumpjets, making the whole thing a rather nasty tradeoff. Mobolity is key for them, making prone absolutly useless for Light assault.

I agree, prone is mostly useless for the LA class. (Possibly it could be used when escaping to avoid machine-gun fire, but very rarely)
I also assume that MAXs will be denied it, if it's implemented. That has no bearing on whether or not it would be a good addition for the people who play HA, Medic, Infiltrator or Engineer. Not all aspects of the game have to be available for all classes (such as vehicle use in MAXs).

Originally Posted by basti

4. Defending and prone: Have fun trying to break a line of people just proning everywhere. Its almost impssible.

Same issue as with people crouching behind cover. If you don't just duel it out at range then the disadvantages of their lack of mobility will more than balance out their advantages in being a smaller target. Again, AoE weapons, which we have plenty of, are more effective against the low-mobility prone targets. They also cannot hit as many targets if they're stuck in one position.

As a specific tactic: use MAXs and Sunderers as line-breakers, (maybe with some judicious application of lightning artillery / liberators) pop out the HAs at close range to wreck 'em, catch the fleeing ones with LAs.

Originally Posted by basti

5. The zerg and prone: In planetside, heck, no, in EVERY game you have the problem that people are afraid of dying. Instead of Rushing, they just chill and wait around the corner. With prone, they have even less reason to move, as they have a smaller chance of killing a dude if they hop around the corner due to low profile, have more enemys shooting at them as prone allows 2 people behind one another to fire at you, and on top of that even gives a damn good reason not to move at all in the first place. The zerg would be proning EVERYWHERE, making Infantary engagments the most boring expirience ever.

Psychology is by far the best counter-argument to having prone. Having it in would mean that there would be a (very minor, I would say) increase in the reluctance of the zerg to actually advance.

However, if this is the case, just pack AoE weaponry or join the fight in a liberator and just wreak merry havoc whenever the enemy show up. I don't think this would be boring and your team may learn what is actually an effective tactic if they see you getting a 10-1 k/d .

[mynameismud]

Originally Posted by fishirboy

That is a good thing, a sniper is supposed to slow them down, to pin them down so they cant move, have there friends go around and wipe the infantry out, hopefully they have 50 cal to kill them tanks haha

You need to carefully read what you make repeat over and over. Prone, by itself, regardless of what people do will imo adversely affect game pacing. If you feel different that's cool, but my argument has NOTHING TO DO WITH CAMPING

When i brought up said sniper, i said go for it. do your thing snipe out there, kill some people, its what your supposed to do. its the fact that a crawling person will slow pacing. REGARDLESS of what people use it for.

[Khrusky]

Originally Posted by mynameismud

When people lie down for any reason it will affect pace of the game for those who use it or not. This is undeniable.

What is in question is whether you think it will be good or bad. Personally I think bad.

I think it will drastically ruin flow.

I deny your assertion that prone affects the pace of the game.

I propose instead that those who use prone would have been stationary anyway, and that it does not affect the prone player's targets' mobility at all (except possibly encouraging them to be more mobile, so as to exploit the prone position's main weakness).

[Stardouser]

Originally Posted by basti

Lets make a list here. You pro prone folks have 24 hours to give proper arguments against the points made on the list. go!

1. Cloakers and PRone. Imagine a Infiltrator going up to a good spot, proning and cloaking. He sits there cloaked, shoots, and cloaks again. There is literally nothing you can do against him, as he got a extremly low profile.
2. Medics/engis and Prone. They simply chill behind, absolutly save from direct fire, and heal the guys up front.
3. Light assault and Prone: Would completly deny them the use of jumpjets, making the whole thing a rather nasty tradeoff. Mobolity is key for them, making prone absolutly useless for Light assault.
4. Defending and prone: Have fun trying to break a line of people just proning everywhere. Its almost impssible.
5. The zerg and prone: In planetside, heck, no, in EVERY game you have the problem that people are afraid of dying. Instead of Rushing, they just chill and wait around the corner. With prone, they have even less reason to move, as they have a smaller chance of killing a dude if they hop around the corner due to low profile, have more enemys shooting at them as prone allows 2 people behind one another to fire at you, and on top of that even gives a damn good reason not to move at all in the first place. The zerg would be proning EVERYWHERE, making Infantary engagments the most boring expirience ever.

Try to give arguments against these. I know you wont...

1. Unrelated. Cloak is cloaked and you can't fire while cloaked, or so we are told. As for nothing you can do about him, you flank him, get behind him, call in a vehicle, or even countersnipe him yourself. Are you demanding the ability to outduel snipers with your assault rifle in a toe to toe battle(so to speak, since this would be at range) by forcing them to stand up to be sprayed?
2. This never seemed to work that way in any other game that has prone. Requires testing, I'll grant you that on this one.
3. You are expecting an argument that choosing to use prone will weaken a light assault (thus, a tradeoff) to be accepted as an argument not to have prone?
4. If this is indoors, it will hurt their own team due to collision. And I'm sure the devs can come up with a solution to it(ie, allowing you to push by friendlies). If this is outdoors, you flank, hit them with tank shells, etc. People lined up make excellent targets for explosive shells.
5. A. Defenders: Chances are, if you are proning waiting for someone to come around the corner, you are a defender inside a base. Either way, if prone doesn't exist, crouch becomes the maximum accuracy position, but with prone, the defender has to sacrifice mobility for accuracy. Sounds like an argument FOR prone, to me. Because if the guy waiting around the corner can have maximum accuracy without having prone, he's going to be a lot more mobile when he needs to be than if he was forced to prone for max accuracy.
B. Attackers: If you are concerned about attackers not rushing, you need to be looking at the effect of low TTK and long runbacks from the Galaxy/nerfed squad spawning first.

[MadPenguin]

Originally Posted by Stew

It will be enough of a balanced to simply do not allow HA to use the MMgun while prone he will have a pistol and a LMG to use while prone Fair enough for me !

Well that's an improvement on not allowing HA to go prone at all, but i still disagree

[Stew]

Originally Posted by mynameismud

You need to carefully read what you make repeat over and over. Prone, by itself, regardless of what people do will imo adversely affect game pacing. If you feel different that's cool, but my argument has NOTHING TO DO WITH CAMPING

When i brought up said sniper, i said go for it. do your thing snipe out there, kill some people, its what your supposed to do. its the fact that a crawling person will slow pacing. REGARDLESS of what people use it for.

Ok dude look at this a 256 player game with objective like planetside 2 with prone tell me where in this you see any sort of slow down in the flow or in the pace due to the prone mechanics ?

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