Gameplay: "We need a hacker!" - Give LA class the Rek

[Ratstomper]

Originally Posted by Femtobyte

All of this talk of balancing, and making one class have more responsibilities... Frankly when we know this little about the game, it seems a little ridiculous.
Lets play the game, then we can debate about balancing whatever we think needs added/subtracted from the game.

This is exactly what I'm thinking. As I said above, we don't even know what all "hacking" entails. We know control points and maybe some doors, but besides that we don't know what kind of targets hacking will affect, we don't know what all hacking can do, we don't even know who is getting what certs regarding hacking. All we know is that infiltrators will be able to cert more into hacking than everyone else will.

At this stage, it's hardly worth any kind of argument over.

[Dagron]

Originally Posted by The Degenatron

How can you say it would add nothing to their responsibilities? Right now their full list of responsibilities are: Run around and shoot people. Putting hacking on the class elevates them to a whole new level.

What i mean is that other than holding a key to capture a node, the only thing that would be adding is more running and shooting, but to get to a place instead of to just draw attention. I don't feel that's a whole new level, it's just a little more direction.

Originally Posted by The Degenatron

I think you're dead wrong in assuming that any player without invisibility is going to be automatically spotted.

Ok, maybe i'm assuming too much about how the numbers will affect the way things play out.
 

[Baneblade]

Originally Posted by The Degenatron

Baneblade: Scouting should be the work of infiltrators, That includes lasing targets and placing markers.

Aren't you the one that is saying LA doesn't have enough to do and Infils have too much to do?

LA is the perfect scout. Mobility is key for scouting.

[The Degenatron]

Originally Posted by Femtobyte

All of this talk of balancing, and making one class have more responsibilities... Frankly when we know this little about the game, it seems a little ridiculous.
Lets play the game, then we can debate about balancing whatever we think needs added/subtracted from the game.

Originally Posted by Ratstomper

This is exactly what I'm thinking. As I said above, we don't even know what all "hacking" entails. We know control points and maybe some doors, but besides that we don't know what kind of targets hacking will affect, we don't know what all hacking can do, we don't even know who is getting what certs regarding hacking. All we know is that infiltrators will be able to cert more into hacking than everyone else will.

At this stage, it's hardly worth any kind of argument over.

Well then, just pack up this section completely. Ok Hamma, you heard 'em. We can't talk about the game until it's in beta.

Originally Posted by Dagron

What i mean is that other than holding a key to capture a node, the only thing that would be adding is more running and shooting, but to get to a place instead of to just draw attention. I don't feel that's a whole new level, it's just a little more direction. 

That's true, but it is an addition and it's not mandatory. It gives LA a different way to play that class. That's also why i snuck the idea of linking squad leader to the LA as well. Like engineers and medics, hackers and squad leaders are support roles and therefore should be squishier. The LA is a great template for those roles.

Listen guys, I have no hard feelings about people poking holes in my ideas, it helps me refine them. But by the same token, I don't post ideas that's don't believe in or won't defend, so if you're going to poo-poo it, then expect a response.

Originally Posted by Baneblade

Aren't you the one that is saying LA doesn't have enough to do and Infils have too much to do?

LA is the perfect scout. Mobility is key for scouting.

Not at all. Infiltrators ARE Sniper/Scouts. Sabotuer dove-tails into that role perfectly.

[Ratstomper]

Originally Posted by The Degenatron

Well then, just pack up this section completely. Ok Hamma, you heard 'em. We can't talk about the game until it's in beta.

For many of the topics here, yes that's probably the case. I don't mind discussion, but this has gone into pre-argument state. I'm just waiting for someone else to invoke reducto ad hitlerum.

I don't mind giving LAs something else (even though I think they're perfectly viable as they are), but I don't think it should be hacking. That may change when we know more about the hows and whys of hacking.

Originally Posted by Baneblade

Aren't you the one that is saying LA doesn't have enough to do and Infils have too much to do?

LA is the perfect scout. Mobility is key for scouting.

That was my thought. If painting would be anything like in PS1, it makes an extremely visible beam for a few seconds before the target is painted. Not very good for infiltrators.

And I hate to say that, because painting targets was one of my favorite things to do in PS1.

[MCYRook]

Originally Posted by The Degenatron

You're gonna find having a Medic is pretty manditory too. As well as having an Engineer. As well as having Heavies. If a class is "not needed", it won't get used.

"Not mandatory" is not the same as "not useful" (or "not needed" as you put it here).

(And sidenote: I don't see where you apparently get the impression from that unless LA is given such a pivotal role, it won't get used. There will be tons of LAs for the jetpack alone, not only because jetpacks are oh so kewl, but because mobility = AWESOME.)

Of course Engis and Medics and HAs will be useful. But you CAN cap a point without any of them. It might not be the easiest or most prudent way to go about it, but you can, the option is there. The way you envision it, you CAN'T without an LA. All other classes are just meat on the point when it comes to actually capping it - bring an LA, or be screwed.

It's just not a good idea, and there's zero reason to make LA (or any single class) that special in the grand scheme of things.

Thankfully tho, I won't need to spend much more breath on this, because it's not gonna happen anyway.

[The Degenatron]

Originally Posted by MCYRook

"Not mandatory" is not the same as "not useful" (or "not needed" as you put it here).

(And sidenote: I don't see where you apparently get the impression from that unless LA is given such a pivotal role, it won't get used. There will be tons of LAs for the jetpack alone, not only because jetpacks are oh so kewl, but because mobility = AWESOME.)

Of course Engis and Medics and HAs will be useful. But you CAN cap a point without any of them. It might not be the easiest or most prudent way to go about it, but you can, the option is there. The way you envision it, you CAN'T without an LA. All other classes are just meat on the point when it comes to actually capping it - bring an LA, or be screwed.

It's just not a good idea, and there's zero reason to make LA (or any single class) that special in the grand scheme of things.

Thankfully tho, I won't need to spend much more breath on this, because it's not gonna happen anyway.

You know, I get it. This is by far the strongest arguement against my idea (to me, the only REAL arguement).

And I guess it boils down to what kind of game we (and when I say "we", I mean us fans) want. Do we want just a giant "quake-fest with classes" or do we want a game that's more tactical? Checkers or Chess?

I remember looooong ago, when I'd been playing PS for almost a year, talking to a guy that had been playing WoW. And this was when WoW was still in its infancy. Now, RPGs have never been my thing, and even less "swords and magic" RPGs - so I'd always looked down on games like that (EQ, Ultima Online, etc.). But the guy was telling me about running a raid (a new concept to me at the time) and as he talked about the interdependance of the classes and the coordination required between them and how you couldn't do a major raid without a good balance of all the classes, I became jealous. In the days when I felt PS was being watered-down and made more and more quake-like with every update, I heard that there were games really forcing team play, and I thought "why can't we do that in PS?" And I was dismayed that so many players wanted PS watered down.

I still feel that way today. I want PS2 to have that tactical depth. Don't get me wrong, I loves me some mindless quake fraggin' as much as the next FPSer, but I think PS2 deserves better than that. No free captures; you should earn it every time.

But I digress, back on topic: You're right about the bottleneck of captures when you link it to one class. Here's a realistic compromise: Scaled cap speeds depending on class:

Time to Hack (baseline):
Max Units       : Never (silly max unit! Your fingers are too big!)
Heavy Assault   : 2.25 minutes
Medic           : 2 minutes
Infiltrator     : 1.75 minutes
Engineers       : 1.5 minutes
Light Assault   : 1 minute

Hacking Cert modifier: 8 Certs - Each is a 5 second reduction 
Total: -40 seconds.

This makes LAs "the hackers" and the most desirable for the job but still allows the other classes to get the job done.

A fully certed LA could hack a console in 20 seconds (about double the E3 play test) while the "big dumb heavy" would struggle the most with it, taking up to 2 minutes and 15 seconds.

"Ofs that, whats do you thinks?" - Skwisgaar Skwigelf

[Ratstomper]

Originally Posted by The Degenatron

Time to Hack (baseline):
Max Units       : Never (silly max unit! Your fingers are too big!)
Heavy Assault   : 2.25 minutes
Medic           : 2 minutes
Infiltrator     : 1.75 minutes
Engineers       : 1.5 minutes
Light Assault   : 1 minute

Hacking Cert modifier: 8 Certs - Each is a 5 second reduction 
Total: -40 seconds.

This makes LAs "the hackers" and the most desirable for the job but still allows the other classes to get the job done.

A fully certed LA could hack a console in 20 seconds (about double the E3 play test) while the "big dumb heavy" would struggle the most with it, taking up to 2 minutes and 15 seconds.

"Ofs that, whats do you thinks?" - Skwisgaar Skwigelf

I think my biggest problem with your argument is the dependence on horrific, movie-esque stereotypes of soldiers. The guy who is big and carries a rocket launcher will just be too stupid to dial his grandmother, much less use any sort of hacking equipment, right? The guy with glasses must only be that way because he spends all his time staring at computer screens. It just seems like an entirely arbitrary point to base a whole game mechanic change on.

However, all that aside, I'm ok with trying it out. I don't think it will work like you think it will and I think it will promote even more lone-wolf gameplay for LAs, but we can try it.

[MCYRook]

Originally Posted by The Degenatron

Here's a realistic compromise: Scaled cap speeds depending on class:

Well now you're getting somewhere that doesn't sound as bad.
Like I said, I could see that hacking certs of some kinds which increase the basic hacking ability might be class-restricted (or differentiate in effectiveness by class).

You're starting it off with different out-of-the-box hacking timers to begin with, which has a similar flavor.

Sidenote: With PS2 moving towards faster gameplay / less downtime compared to PS1, I very much doubt we'll see any hack durations > 60 seconds. Certainly not > 90 seconds, and probably far below 60 by my guess. Especially since there won't be just that one CC that the whole facility hack depends on.

[Baneblade]

That is all assuming that hacking the cc means the same thing in PS2.

[xSquirtle]

All classes besides the max should be able to hack. I do not like the idea of baby sitting a person because no one else has this ability to hack stuff.

Originally Posted by The Degenatron

Time to Hack (baseline):
Max Units       : Never (silly max unit! Your fingers are too big!)
Heavy Assault   : 2.25 minutes
Medic           : 2 minutes
Infiltrator     : 1.75 minutes
Engineers       : 1.5 minutes
Light Assault   : 1 minute

Hacking Cert modifier: 8 Certs - Each is a 5 second reduction 
Total: -40 seconds.

While this is a great concept. Hack times are far to high IMO.

[The Degenatron]

Originally Posted by Baneblade

That is all assuming that hacking the cc means the same thing in PS2.

Actually, I'm basing this off of the game play footage from E3.

Originally Posted by MCYRook

Well now you're getting somewhere that doesn't sound as bad.
Like I said, I could see that hacking certs of some kinds which increase the basic hacking ability might be class-restricted (or differentiate in effectiveness by class).

You're starting it off with different out-of-the-box hacking timers to begin with, which has a similar flavor.

Sidenote: With PS2 moving towards faster gameplay / less downtime compared to PS1, I very much doubt we'll see any hack durations > 60 seconds. Certainly not > 90 seconds, and probably far below 60 by my guess. Especially since there won't be just that one CC that the whole facility hack depends on.

Originally Posted by xSquirtle

All classes besides the max should be able to hack. I do not like the idea of baby sitting a person because no one else has this ability to hack stuff.

While this is a great concept. Hack times are far to high IMO.

Yea, the actual hack times are definately adjustable. The main point was to illustrate the ratio of time differences between the classes and how the bonuses would affect overall hack times. It could all be scaled according to the best game play outcome.

[Karrade]

I do hope the LA get something more than light armor + a pack (which is a tradeoff), because from what we've seen so far, they seem the most underloved.

[kunzadar]

I see a lot of talk about how LA needs more utility, but i don't think that fits.

The class is called light assault. There usefulness in a squad comes from their ability to flank and disrupt the enemy, and be lethal. If their to weak of a class then add things that let them do their job better, like more specialty grenades or weapons.

What i'm saying is that the engineers and medics are their for support. The other classes can and do have massive tactical value without adding more utility. Even if medics and engineers have all the gadgets you would never make a squad of all medics / engineers.

[Karrade]

Originally Posted by kunzadar

Even if medics and engineers have all the gadgets you would never make a squad of all medics / engineers.

Why not? If you answer with, because that would be silly, you haven't thought it through .

Depending how effective such a squad will be, you could well see such a squad. If they can heal, give themselves ammo and hold a point effectively, you just took the old PS1 HA Medic/Repair combo and split it into two.

If LA's get range + plus manoeuvrability all will be well. I've seen some suggest it should be short range only, which makes the whole manoeuvrability and jet pack less useful in the first place. If it is short range only, which has been suggested, then they need more than just the ability to look flashy to be effective.

I am not suggesting people won't play whatever the heck they feel like, LA included, I am suggesting it's the weakest class without range, or some other trick up its sleeve.