Improvement: Ignore list as a tool to encourage a positive social environment

[TAA]

I have updated the original post with modifications based on suggestions made so far in this thread.

[jakaul]

Originally Posted by TAA

How is this different from me getting on voice chat and telling all of my friends to ignore someone? The automatic sharing process I suggest would be purely opt in, and you would choose who can add to your list. Its just a way to simplify a process that can already take place with much hassle and work around. There could even be another option - check this box to receive ignore list recommendations from your friends (individually selected by you), check this other box to have those recommendations added automatically. If you like you could manually approve each recommendation.

Secondly, how would this group grief work exactly? Would you care to spell it out for me so I could understand what would happen? How would this compare to the situation I have already outlined in this other post above?

1) Visual indications of people on your ignore list shared to your group - this means the game is giving a group of people an avenue to pick out an ignored person from one person to that person's group. It's effectively the same thing as bullying. You can't turn off friendly fire due to the point below, so now the game has given a group of people a viable way to selectively grief individuals in a gift wrapped way.

2) No friendly fire between "ignorees" and "ignored". I'd just take my one squad, ignore everyone from my outfit's second squad and hold bases without the risk of friendly fire. Toggle it off to support with healing/repairs, etc. It'd be pretty interesting to not have to worry so much about friendly fire.

If you took out the no friendly fire and visual indicators and left it more towards not allowing them in squads, vehicles, or missions and such...I don't mind the sharing of ignore lists at all.

[Flaropri]

Originally Posted by TAA

What if I told you that if you didnt want to, nobody would ever share anything of the sort with you? What if I told you that you didnt have to share any of your ignore list with anyone? The point of the idea is that it is completely optional and opt in on an individual person basis.

You're missing the point I think. Also, this is partly my fault for not reading into it fully and just skimming. Ignore should not be a function to completely remove someone from your game. Ignore should be a way to mute players not toggle mechanics like Friendly Fire or remove mission assignments. To keep from hearing them, to keep them out of your squads, to minimize interaction, those are all reasonable.

You (or someone at least) used an example of someone talking about how another player was cheating as a reason to share an ignore list.

That is often a misconception. People accuse others of hacking far too often in a given FPS. Whether or not you think someone is hacking should be something you determine for yourself, not rely on the word of another.

There are numerous reasons why a given person might be mistaken in their accusations, why their accusations might not apply in the next day or two, etc. With your ignore features the way they are, there is no real way for people to be able to redeem themselves either, and if you're automatically sharing that, with no chance of "redemption" or defending yourself from "false accusations" it can get messed up pretty quickly for several reasons.

Aside from that, if there is a severe enough reason to justify an entire group ignoring a player they should probably be kicked by SOE staff, so why not use a reporting system and let the GMs handle it in addition to individual ignores?

The problems with shared ignore lists have been gone into by a lot of others, but it also goes into a (usually) single experience by an individual being used to create ignore lists for a group. Whether I choose to use it or not doesn't matter, because there are people that would use it, and would thus ignore people because of personal disagreements with an individual, because yesterday was a bad day (and now they can't even apologize via an associate of whoever they took it out on) or because the person putting them on ignore is a dick and likes to mess with people.

If you want to improve PS2 in-game society, do it the hard way: via communication not an automated system.

[TAA]

Originally Posted by jakaul

1) Visual indications of people on your ignore list shared to your group - this means the game is giving a group of people an avenue to pick out an ignored person from one person to that person's group. It's effectively the same thing as bullying. You can't turn off friendly fire due to the point below, so now the game has given a group of people a viable way to selectively grief individuals in a gift wrapped way.

2) No friendly fire between "ignorees" and "ignored". I'd just take my one squad, ignore everyone from my outfit's second squad and hold bases without the risk of friendly fire. Toggle it off to support with healing/repairs, etc. It'd be pretty interesting to not have to worry so much about friendly fire.

If you took out the no friendly fire and visual indicators and left it more towards not allowing them in squads, vehicles, or missions and such...I don't mind the sharing of ignore lists at all.

Those are great comments! Would you be able to elaborate a little on something?

When you say that visual indicators are a way to pick out someone for bullying you are very right. However I dont understand what form this bullying would take exactly. For example, lets take a hypothetical group of 5 players (the bullies) and a hypothetical new player (the victim). The five bullies add the new player to their ignore lists and can now visually identify him. However they cannot interact with him in any other way other than to dance around in front of him a little.

Now take another hypothetical example where the five bullies dont add the new player to their ignore list. They cant visually identify him, but there are a number of things they can do to him - verbal abuse via chat and voice, eject him out of vehicles, take it in turns to friendly fire kill him (so as to minimize their grief), run in front of him while he is firing and cause him to rack up grief, etc. They can organize all this over voice, and as long as one of them can pick him out via his name tag they can all do as they please.

Why add visual identification at all? I think it is important for visual reinforcement. If one guy starts mouthing off at his squad and sees the people around him changing to orange tags one by one (because they are adding him to their ignore lists) it is a very strong visual cue for people to immediately start changing their behavior.


Your concern about friendly fire off being abused for an advantage is also very valid - on paper at least. However it is a valid concern, and I have modified my original post just now to help ease those concerns (see the 48 hr cooldown, and complete inability to interact). The truth is that in an FPS you cannot simply change settings in the middle of a firefight.

Example: your squad is all ignoring each other so that there is no FF between you. You cannot ride any vehicles that one of you is driving, none of you can be a squad leader, and you cannot heal or repair each other. In the middle of a firefight one of your buddies gets killed. You rush over to revive him. You stop, press escape to access the game menu, click on the social button, select the ignore list tab, find his name on your list, press the button to unignore him, press escape again to get back to the game, revive him, then repeat the process to add him back to your ignore list. Practical application of this? Almost none. Note however that to ease your concerns that there is an easy solution as per my modification above.

Edit: Note that the FF off was something I added later in my suggestions, and not part of my original version. I added it for the following reasons:

• Despite the grief system in place for PS2 it is still the case that FF can be used to persistently harass one individual, especially if done by a group working together to minimize grief
• Players who are ignored may want to retaliate or continue the abuse by killing people who ignored them

Originally Posted by Flaropri

Ignore should not be a function to completely remove someone from your game. Ignore should be a way to mute players not toggle mechanics like Friendly Fire or remove mission assignments. To keep from hearing them, to keep them out of your squads, to minimize interaction, those are all reasonable.

I thought a mute button would serve to stop you from hearing another player. An ignore button should be another step of severity beyond that. A mute button serves its purpose well if you just find someone annoying or obnoxious, but if they were to just shut up you wouldnt mind playing with them. What if they really bother you and you want nothing to do with them whatsover?

You say you are ok with keeping people out of your squads, minimizing interaction and to keep from hearing them. Didnt I propose those things? Someone on your ignore list as proposed would not be able to enter your vehicles, join squads to which you are a leader, etc. I do go one step further and say that they should also not be able to receive heals, ammunition, repairs, spots etc from each other. The FF off addition was something I added recently, but I feel that there was good reasons for doing that. The mission ignoring system wont matter so much if you cant join their squad anyway right?

Originally Posted by Flaropri

You (or someone at least) used an example of someone talking about how another player was cheating as a reason to share an ignore list.

That is often a misconception. People accuse others of hacking far too often in a given FPS. Whether or not you think someone is hacking should be something you determine for yourself, not rely on the word of another.

There are numerous reasons why a given person might be mistaken in their accusations, why their accusations might not apply in the next day or two, etc. With your ignore features the way they are, there is no real way for people to be able to redeem themselves either, and if you're automatically sharing that, with no chance of "redemption" or defending yourself from "false accusations" it can get messed up pretty quickly for several reasons.

Absolutely 100% true. I personally would be very very reluctant to add someone to my ignore list because a fellow player in my outfit told me that they were hacking. There are however 2-3 long-time players I know with experience in server admin and in competitive play that I would trust completely. Each person makes their own decision on who to trust. Isnt that kind of common sense?

There is something that I see all the time though. If someone in an FPS server is kicked or banned for no good reason, that person usually goes to the forums of that clan and reports on there that they felt the decision was unfair. That is the only recourse to an unfair banning in an FPS. It works. Sometimes an admin is really abusing his privileges and giving the clan a bad name.

If someone felt they were unfairly added to an ignore list they can always do the same thing. They can go to the forums for that outfit and present their case. At the very least the other outfit members will know not to trust any ignore recommendations from that one member you pointed out.

Originally Posted by Flaropri

Aside from that, if there is a severe enough reason to justify an entire group ignoring a player they should probably be kicked by SOE staff, so why not use a reporting system and let the GMs handle it in addition to individual ignores?

A reporting system takes time to get acted upon. A mute or an ignore button is immediate. Think of this as a form of putting the user in charge of his/her gameplay experience.

Now here is a question for you. Tell me about your outfit. Would you accept without question all recommendations from your outfit members to ignore someone? Would they all accept your recommendations without question?

Originally Posted by Flaropri

The problems with shared ignore lists have been gone into by a lot of others, but it also goes into a (usually) single experience by an individual being used to create ignore lists for a group. Whether I choose to use it or not doesn't matter, because there are people that would use it, and would thus ignore people because of personal disagreements with an individual, because yesterday was a bad day (and now they can't even apologize via an associate of whoever they took it out on) or because the person putting them on ignore is a dick and likes to mess with people.

If you want to improve PS2 in-game society, do it the hard way: via communication not an automated system.

Isnt that their choice though? I am not one to judge what reasons people have to ignore other people. They do it all the time. People ignore each other in games and even in these forums. This is entertainment that they are paying for. They shouldnt have to put up with people that annoy them for any reason.

The key to understand here is that the ignore list system I propose goes beyond just an ignore list so that you dont have to listen to someone. Ignoring someone would have tangible in game effects for both the person doing the ignoring and the person being ignored. If you ignore too many people you would start affecting your own gameplay. Do you really want to blindly add people to your ignore list based on recommendations from people you barely know? If so then you can do that regardless of the game you play - its just more time consuming to do but you can still do it. The difference is that here there would be repercussions for you if you chose not to be discriminating enough.

Edit: I acknowledge that you consider automated sharing to be problematic. I removed the automated system part of it from my original suggestion. Refer back to the original post for the changes. Sharing of ignore lists is still allowed (as could be done via voice or email) but each entry must be manually approved by each user.

[Kezz]

Originally Posted by TAA

Why add visual identification at all? I think it is important for visual reinforcement. If one guy starts mouthing off at his squad and sees the people around him changing to orange tags one by one (because they are adding him to their ignore lists) it is a very strong visual cue for people to immediately start changing their behavior.

I think this points up a major flaw in the system as proposed, where it won't achieve what you hoped. The outcast has no way to regain favour. If he's been yammering in /l too much and people ignore him, they won't know when he gets the message and shuts up. It's a one-way street, and that's not good. It gives no reward for changing behaviour.

Perhaps there could be an option to "appeal" to someone who's ignored you. A once-in-a-while (you get one, perhaps, then another in a week, then a last one a month later) single /tell that you could use to apologise, and which could, if used to be abusive, be reported to a CSR for severe action. Its stated only purpose should be clear: this is to apologise and ask forgiveness; the potential consequences of abusing the chance should be severe and clearly stated.

[TAA]

Originally Posted by Kezz

I think this points up a major flaw in the system as proposed, where it won't achieve what you hoped. The outcast has no way to regain favour. If he's been yammering in /l too much and people ignore him, they won't know when he gets the message and shuts up. It's a one-way street, and that's not good. It gives no reward for changing behaviour.

Well the idea is that the visual cue to change behavior is not to change it in the eyes of the person that just ignored them, but to change it for other people from that point on. It is also a visual reminder from that point forward on how they have affected their own gameplay experience. Some people are not aware that they are obnoxious and a visual reminder would serve as a nudge for them to change behavior. Others are obnoxious deliberately. A repeat offender would slowly find themselves playing in a larger and larger sea of orange tags, watching all the people moving to and fro doing things as if he/she werent even there. Even the most dedicated griefer would begin to realize that they were beginning to miss out on the full experience of the game.

Remember as well that if someone is just yammering too much in game that people would be more likely to mute that person. Ignoring someone would have larger consequences for both people.

Originally Posted by Kezz

Perhaps there could be an option to "appeal" to someone who's ignored you. A once-in-a-while (you get one, perhaps, then another in a week, then a last one a month later) single /tell that you could use to apologise, and which could, if used to be abusive, be reported to a CSR for severe action. Its stated only purpose should be clear: this is to apologise and ask forgiveness; the potential consequences of abusing the chance should be severe and clearly stated.

I think this is an excellent suggestion. I will add it to the original post now!

[Crator]

Originally Posted by Kezz

Perhaps there could be an option to "appeal" to someone who's ignored you. A once-in-a-while (you get one, perhaps, then another in a week, then a last one a month later) single /tell that you could use to apologise, and which could, if used to be abusive, be reported to a CSR for severe action. Its stated only purpose should be clear: this is to apologise and ask forgiveness; the potential consequences of abusing the chance should be severe and clearly stated.

I like that but I'd also like a "Temporary /ignore option". I normally ignore people cause they are sitting there spamming stupid orders/things in global or spamming local chat/voice macros over and over.... I would use a temp /ignore with a "Length of time" toggle for how long it will last... After the time has expired it would remove the ignore flag but keep a record of it. If they are still spamming after the /ignore flag is removed you can opt to perma-ignore them.

[TAA]

Originally Posted by Crator

I like that but I'd also like a "Temporary /ignore option". I normally ignore people cause they are sitting there spamming stupid orders/things in global or spamming local chat/voice macros over and over.... I would use a temp /ignore with a "Length of time" toggle for how long it will last... After the time has expired it would remove the ignore flag but keep a record of it. If they are still spamming after the /ignore flag is removed you can opt to perma-ignore them.

I figured that is what mute would be used for.

[Crator]

^^^ Sounds good to me!

[Buggsy]

Good idea except:

Originally Posted by TAA

[*]People on your ignore list cannot harm you in-game, and you cannot harm them. FF is turned off between the two of you. You cannot heal, resupply, repair them or spot for them. They cannot heal, resupply, repair or spot for you.

This would be exploited. A no friendly fire player in your squad, very useful for tower zerging with plasma spam.

People would go out of their way to be ignored by everyone.

[The Loverator]

Only Problem: Unsocial People use the Ignore-List much more than decent People.


And it's right. It can easily become a Method of Bullying someone, or at least a Try.

A Ignore-List never helped Community's to become more "reasonable" or Stuff. An Example and Proof of that is the (Sorry *Cough*) 'antisocial' Community of World of Warcraft, with a~ll it's detestably cocky, insolent Egoists and recalcitrant Individuals - who think they "are Someone".


It gets worse often the higher up the Players are in something like Guilds. Most People who have a l~iiiittle bit Might over other's, are most often complete Shitheads. (*Cough Cough*), Sorry for my Choice of Words.


Main Point why i mention these kind of People, is: That If only ONE of them makes something really stupid one Time, like doing some Injustice to others - and comes into a Position where sooner or later he/she should just admit to have acted wrong and make a Mistake,

the Person becomes even more conceited and unreasonable - and often, it gets demanded from the whole Guild Membership to "ignore" the Person who was done wrong to,

so the Ignore-List can pretty quick become a Tool of corrupt Person's to try to "become Immune" of the logical Consequences of when someone acts just wrong.


Something like a 'Safeguard' to make sure to 'stand above other's', what simply said, "transforms A**holes into even bigger/worse A**holes".


In my last three Year's of Worst of Whorecraft (*Cough* Ahem), i observed such Things happening quite a few Times with People i was acquainted a little bit - or even with Friends i knew from WoW Vanilla on.

One Time, such a Person even tried to make something this stupid with me, but stubborn as i can be, i made several new Characters/Twinks, to tell the Guild Members anyway of what happened - and managed to bring the Truth to Light about what for an Injustice a Person - out of cheer Inferiority-Complexes and a bad Character - did to me - and even managed to make about Four or Five People leave the Guild, when they heard of what happened.


A~hhh, good, "old" Times. <3 It was even a "Game-Master" (Moderator/Admin Ingame) contacted from the Person who tried to mess with me,

after i got threatened from the mentioned Person like " Apologize or i have to contact the Game-Masters! " and of Course i refused.



What for a Hammer. After the "Mass Ignore" of my Character didn't work as a "Punishment" from a cocky Person, these Person tried to make the Game-Masters corner me,

only because we had a Disputation with me leaving the Guild afterwards and not acting like a obedient Person.



So to say: As "funny" or harmless it may sounds, i have pretty much experienced ALL kinds of Abuse of Power or "attempted" Abuse of Power against my Person,

and i just KNOW that Ignore-Lists can be a very clear Weapon of unsocial People instead of the decent People.



So in Short. If there is no Ignore-List in the Game, it's not bad. If someone try's to annoy you without End, using Chatfunctions you "m~ay" cannot shut off,

please make Screenshots from what these Person's say, or when they insult you or Stuff - and report them to the Autority's managing the Game.

They WILL get handled by the One's who hold Authority in the Game, please believe me.




greetings, LV.

[Baneblade]

I've been put on ignore for 'directing the zerg over cont all'. Not shitting you.

[TAA]

Originally Posted by Baneblade

I've been put on ignore for 'directing the zerg over cont all'. Not shitting you.

Originally Posted by The Loverator

Only Problem: Unsocial People use the Ignore-List much more than decent People.

Loverator, I would like to say that I truly empathize with what you have gone through. You are absolutely 100% correct when you say that unsocial people use the ignore list more than decent people, and Baneblade I know it is very true that people will often ignore you for almost no reason.

The acts you both describe however fall under what I classify as a mute button. A button that you press to stop hearing someone talking or chatting. The ignore button I am proposing also has consequences for the person doing the ignoring.

For example, Loverator you mention WoW in your rather terrible tale. WoW is primarily a PvE game. You can play almost all of the game content without actually grouping up with anyone, and for the content that you do need a group all you need is your guild to log in and play with you. Muting other players has no effect on your personal gameplay experience other than (a) not being able to listen to someone anymore, and (b) possibly abusing it as a tool of social ostracism from an existing social group like what happened to you. There is no penalty to the player who abused his position in your case.

How do you think the situation would have changed if every time a player ignored someone that there would be a measurable impact to their ability to play the game? The more people one person ignores, the more their gameplay experience is negatively affected. Do you think that people would be more likely, less likely or as likely to put people on their ignore lists because other people told them to?

This difference will be dramatically accentuated in PS2 because it is a pure PvP (faction vs faction) game. You will never be as successful working alone as you will if you work as a group. Even if one outfit was to decide to fight the war essentially alone they would always come across friendly units everywhere they went, and they would be working with those units to maximize their potential to succeed in that war. Each person you ignore (my definition of ignore) is potentially one less revive you can receive, one less galaxy transport that can move you to the frontline, one less box of ammo for you to use.

Originally Posted by The Loverator

So in Short. If there is no Ignore-List in the Game, it's not bad. If someone try's to annoy you without End, using Chatfunctions you "m~ay" cannot shut off, please make Screenshots from what these Person's say, or when they insult you or Stuff - and report them to the Autority's managing the Game. They WILL get handled by the One's who hold Authority in the Game, please believe me.

Yes the admins would act on abuse. Now here is a question for you: how many players do you think will take the time to screenshot something, log out of the game, go to the help page for SOE and report the problem with the screenshot evidence? How many players will stick around until support arrives?

The sad truth is that a huge number of people simply log off and go do something where they are not being abused. Microsoft Research says that figure is about 30%. I linked to this paper in another thread.

Originally Posted by Microsoft Research

Table 5
How did you respond to the bad
behavior?
Chose not to respond 27.5%
Could not respond 5.8%
Responded directly to perp 58.8%
Informed administrator 37.6%
Left the game 29.9%

Yes about 1/3 of people report the bad behavior, but about the same number of people also leave the game entirely. Many probably do both (report then leave). That is a problem. Bad behavior by a few bad customers has a direct impact on profits. What sort of game design strategies would you suggest could be put into place to discourage this sort of bad behavior and thus encourage people to stay logged in playing/spending?

[Crator]

Originally Posted by The Loverator

Bunch of stuff

Jeez, you described why I generally hate most guilds/outfits! Good job. We should not have to rely on the game moderators to ignore/mute people though. That's pushing it too far.

And my position on the people who get ignored is they should learn to listen before speaking. That's all.... Ignore and mute functions should definitely be available as an option in-game.

[Neurotoxin]

I assume Command chat for NC and TR is mostly filled with mindless drivel like it often is for VS.

I definitely hope any sort of Command Chat will actually have enforcement, and consequences for players who use it for things other than gameplay-related communications. Yeah its a game, but some folks like to win when they are playing.