we need to see the scat max stats. ( devs please read)

[snafus]

I would love to see how the MLG guys felt about the scat max balance.

[Chewy]

As I said, 3 videos of MAX weapons with each showing number of shots needed for infantry and MAX kills as well as an estimate of burst fire needed at 10 meter intervals. I stopped tests for infantry once at distances reloads are needed but went for as many reloads as needed for MAX kills until that number or distance gets to large to be of use in combat.
In short for those not wanting to watch me shoot at VR targets, my test findings are.

-NC-
Stock Hacksaw-
Infantry
0m, 2 shot kill
10m, 2-4 hit kill
20m, 9-12 hit kill with possible reload if full auto.

MAX
0m, 12 shot kill
10m, 16-17 shot kill. One reload needed
20m, 56 shot kill. 3 reloads needed


Hacksaw slugs- (I had a LOT of fail with this part. It was late and wasn't thinking right when editing)
MAX
0m, 21 slug kill 2 reloads
10m, 21 slugs 2 reloads
20m, 21 slugs again but with chances of missing from here out. 2-3 reloads

Infantry
0m, 2 slugs (even pure headshots)
10m, 2 slug kill
20m, 3 slug kill with good chance to miss
30m, 2-4 slug kill with a high miss chance
(reloads may not be needed if all shots are fired in single shot to remove COF and recoil effects. But without slow controlled fire, reloads can be needed from 20m and out)

-TR-
Dual Mercy-
Infantry
0m, 7 hit kill
10m, 8 hit kill with about a 10 round burst
20m, 8 hit kill with about a 16-20 round burst
30m, 7 hit kill with about a 20 round burst
40m, 8 hit kill with about a 20-24 round burst
50m, a 30-50 round burst needed (stopped doing shingle shots due to people spawning on me and getting in the way)
60m, about a 50 round burst
70m, 50 round burst

MAX (nothing but full auto fire)
0m, 70 shot kill
10m, 72-74 shot kill
20m, 110-115 shot kill. One reload needed
30m, 150-170 shot kill. One reload needed


-VS-
Dual Cosmos-
Infantry
0m, 6 hit kill
10m, 6-7 hit kill with about a 10 round burst
20m, 7 hit kill with about a 16-18 round burst
30m, 5-7 hit kill with about a 18-20 round burst
40m, (many pests for this one) Anywhere between a 26-30ish round burst
50m, 34 round burst
60m, 34-36 round burst
70m, Random as hell. 70-120 round burst (might have did this one wrong somehow)

MAX (full auto fire only)
0m, 59-60 round burst
10m, 70-74 round burst
20m, 78-80 round burst
30m, 114 round burst
39m (damn tree), 150-151 round burst, likely one reload needed


As with those stats I posted before my opinion is going to be held back. I am letting the videos be my opinions for now until feedback is given. Have fun ripping me apart

[Electrofreak]

The video evidences in those tests are pretty damning.

Hacksaw MAX, as expected, pwns everything under 20 meters. Above that, you're going through at least 1 reload just to kill an infantry, even if he's standing still for you.

The TR Dual Mercy can shred infantry out to around 70 meters without having to reload, and only has a fraction of a second longer TTK than Hacksaws at point blank.

The VS Cosmos does nearly as well with the benefit of 50% larger clips.

Sorry, but give me the versatility to use my MAX suit outside, and I'll give you those damn shotguns.

[WarbirdTD]

Do you ever see MAXes of any kind surviving outside though? TR and VS maxes run between buildings because being outside in a MAX means death. The major issue here is the amount of one-shot-kills that happen on the inside of any major base, any tower, any building in which a point is housed. The highest health infantry unit should not be able to one-hit-kill, and it MOST CERTAINLY should not be refiring as fast as a Hacksaw does. I'm ok with it being "automatic" but either the refire rate needs a nerf, or the ridiculous damage needs a nerf. Personally, I'd like NC MAX weapons to be reimagined, and MAX shotguns be poofed, but that's not likely to happen unfortunately.

[Sledgecrushr]

Originally Posted by WarbirdTD

Do you ever see MAXes of any kind surviving outside though? TR and VS maxes run between buildings because being outside in a MAX means death. The major issue here is the amount of one-shot-kills that happen on the inside of any major base, any tower, any building in which a point is housed. The highest health infantry unit should not be able to one-hit-kill, and it MOST CERTAINLY should not be refiring as fast as a Hacksaw does. I'm ok with it being "automatic" but either the refire rate needs a nerf, or the ridiculous damage needs a nerf. Personally, I'd like NC MAX weapons to be reimagined, and MAX shotguns be poofed, but that's not likely to happen unfortunately.

Did you watch the videos? 56 shots, 3 reloads to kill a max at 20 meters. Give me a fucking break here.

[Revanmug]

Originally Posted by Shamrock

How about I pay more attention to spelling name's right and you learn how not to be rude and show some common courtesy.

Considering the way you answer (You did not) to my post, I think that would be ironic to ask for courtesy don't you think? Look at yourself next time... If you can.

Originally Posted by Shamrock

I happen to think the Vanny could do with an armor buff, its feels boxy, slow and easy to hit. But this thread is not about MBT's...

If you were able to read, you would realise my post wasn't about the Vanguard but about using stats as the only proof needed for balance.

If 30% higher score/min prove that a scattermax is completly broken, it is pretty clear that the Vanguard siting 120% lower in score/min to a magrider is even more retardly broken.

Amusingly, you pretty much prove my point. It doesn't not need a simple slight armor increase, it need everything to be revamp. People like you are mostly twisting stats their way when using those as absolute. All this is according to the Scatter being totaly broken and the stat sheet of course. Live experience doesn't really confirm much of the vanguard stats and it had nothing to do with MGP's post which I was replying to. Simply, stats should help and not simply being all you need.

Did you actually bother reading that post too? I doubt it.

Originally Posted by Shamrock

You were not up front about it when you made your post; ie you were less than candid. If I argue on behalf of something I or my colleagues use I first look at my own position and that of my colleagues, If I am a heavy user of the very thing I'm trying to justify I will open up with a disclaimer or I know my argument will be rebutted with claims of bias.

I was not up front with my post? lol. How could I be "less than candid" when I didn't even talk about scatter. Are you talking about my edit reply? Are you saying you saw ScatterMax outside CQC area dominating everything? Because that would be simply lying. It's fairly obvious that people using shotgun weaponry is going to remain in CQC areas fairly often. Any other obvious declaration to make?

Since I never argue about the power of the NC MAX, it is impossible for me to argue "on the behalf of something." As for oufit member, they can do anything they want since I have no power over DVS and so, none over their playtime. My hatred/love of certain tactic and/or weaponry is also my business only and doesn't/shouldn't affect anyone of the outfit. You should probably lay off your hatred of DVS if you want interesting discussion.

As for the heavy use comment... My MAX total use timewise is of 7%. If 7% of 6 class is huge for you, I suggest you redo your Math class that you failed. Now, there is another avenue to argue but believing 7% use of MAX is in the top is pretty idiotic right from the start. Could be interesting to see though.

Originally Posted by Shamrock

Your getting a little hysterical here, 4k may not be amazing to you but to majority of the player base and even a certain proportion of players on the leader-boards it constitutes heavy use of a MAX.

You are just twisting things your way. If 4k kills is a heavy use of a class(and not playtime somehow), why aren't you complaining about my 8k kills with bolt action rifles? Why not do the same for the Lightning HEAT canon 4k kills as well?

Like you said, it's a matter of proportion. It is pretty retard to simply use kills amount from people that have a high number of kills in general. It's kind of normal they'll have a higher amount of kills with most weaponry than the general player base...

Originally Posted by Shamrock

Your labeling of your jpg's "killidiotpage", "pagetimeidiot", again see first point, try to learn some common courtesy when discussing a point, the only person you make look bad when being rude is yourself.

NB: I may have many flaws, but being an idiot isn't one of them, I have a Masters in law and a Masters in business, I rarely meet lawyers that are more highly qualified than me.

What I name my files is irrelevant. Considering they're going to be deleted soon and they only concern me, I could have name them anything from simple temporarySS_1 or any fantasy name. I have no reason to follow common files naming rules. What matter is that it show what you missed on purpose. As for courtesy, you have no ground to ask for any.

For someone that is supposely intelligent or at least, not an idiot, you have yet to realise that in a discussion on the internet, what you are or do does not matter. Pretty basic Law on the Internet... See what I did there?

Originally Posted by Shamrock

The thread isn't about the sum total of his kills; its about a situational advantage the NC MAX has over and above the other 2 factions that is utterly disproportionate. You and your friends are well aware of this and to all intents and purposes appear to be fighting tooth and nail to maintain that unfair advantage.

You really have a profound hatred for DVS don't you? I'm kind of curious as to why because your logic make absolutly no sense as I said earlier. Are you saying people should completly stop be using NC MAX for what it is clearly design for because it is op? If it is the case, did you said the same for people using the Magrider or the Prowler? How is your fight against tank mines(I'm using them as C4 btw)? For how long did you curse Air before you got those several AA buff (Check my ESF kills if you want to hate me even more)? Devs will never be able to balance everything perfectly. I may hate certain playstyle but so long as the "exploit" isn't a "game glitch", for the lack of proper terms, that wasn't intended from devs (unlike shotgun, Magrider or the Prowler AI skillz), it doesn't bothers me.

In the end, Chewy and I seem to be the only DVS posting in this thread and he isn't part of your "wall of shame." Since I haven't said a word on balance, that leave only Chewy that as far as I see, has remain fairly neutral. Amusingly, for you, that mean we are fighting "tooth and nail" on a fan site forum to convince the Devs that scatters are actually fine.

Just for fun. Want my opinion which was from Beta? You know, the one that wasn't calling MAX an abomination in a FPS game? Simple, remove shotgun from max and give a Gauss MG. Every single problem fix. Except the "PS1 flavor." Too bad Devs didn't like it back then.

[Chewy]

Originally Posted by WarbirdTD

Do you ever see MAXes of any kind surviving outside though? TR and VS maxes run between buildings because being outside in a MAX means death. The major issue here is the amount of one-shot-kills that happen on the inside of any major base, any tower, any building in which a point is housed. The highest health infantry unit should not be able to one-hit-kill, and it MOST CERTAINLY should not be refiring as fast as a Hacksaw does. I'm ok with it being "automatic" but either the refire rate needs a nerf, or the ridiculous damage needs a nerf. Personally, I'd like NC MAX weapons to be reimagined, and MAX shotguns be poofed, but that's not likely to happen unfortunately.

I have seen TR and VS MAXes being used outside of buildings and they can kick as much, if not more, ass there as indoors. A supported MAX at any range can be a lethal tool if they have the range, and NC MAXes don't have that range.

The ONLY way a NC MAX can OHK (one hit kill) is with a non slug 0m-5m headshot. Even if a NC MAX can get 100% OHKs (impossible even at 0m), that is at max 14 kills per reload where near any TR or VS MAX can get up to 10 kills with stock dual weapons just by aiming for center mass at ranges up to 20m per reload. Is that fair to you?

Did you even watch the videos? A NC MAX has to reload after each and every firing or they wont have the ammo to take on the next target. More so with the ammo wasting Hacksaws. Send just 1 man into a door before a group and every NC MAX in that room is reloading, free kills or MASSIVE damage. Where as TR and VS MAXes have the ammo to eat up to 6 infantry before even having to THINK about a reload. Is that fair?

Shotguns have only 1 role. Shock weapons that liquify anything within 10 meters. In every single other situation they will loose and have to play smart even within their "home turf" thanks to heavy ammo limits. Guess what faction only has CQC options. For 2 factions to be able to use a tool in any situation but 1 faction has no other option but CQC. Is THAT fair?

[Empra]

I agree hacksaws are OP.

TBH I don't think the others are OP. The slugs seems to upgrade the range a little far but, unless you are camping, you have to be damn close to get that short TTK. I play scatmax whenever inside etc and having to be that close means you get taken down pretty quick by nades and c4 and rockets.

I don't think people should be so quick to show their rage for oneshots. Snipers, Rockets, Grenades. All one shot instagib in the right situation. Rockets do not take that much skill to instakill with either. NC max has those same TTKs but only indoors at like 5 metres.

Maybe it's because I'm using mattock/scatter but I rarely one shot anybody unless its in the face or point blanc. Usually takes atleast 2 shots from each arm, or one shot to the face if you are close enough.

Try being NC max and you will see they aren't as OP as people say. Except possibly the Hacksaw. The power for the high fire rate hacksaws shuold be nerfed imo. I would accept a nerf to the regular scatmaxes as long as they got the equivalent back in range. I can't imagine them being very useful otherwise.

As soon as you reload near enemy you are dead, you can't press forward very fast, don't try and go anywhere without an engy, really bad without extended mags for any sustained conflict. Eats ammo. Less soloable unless you camp, if you have spread out targets then you have to run away and funnel or you will die when you reload. Especially vs TR heavies.

TL DR I think hacksaws need nerfing, othe NC max stuff isn't as great as everyone makes out, I play plenty NC max and don't out perform other maxes except one on one at the right range.

The reason people are getting so butthurt I think is because they keep running into NC maxes inside biolabs and buildings and getting instagibbed. Same reason I hate proximity mines. They never show up either.

Hacksaws however are way too powerful for the fire rate but this is only based on my VR experience.

[Shamrock]

Originally Posted by Revanmug

You really have a profound hatred for DVS don't you? I'm kind of curious as to why because your logic make absolutly no sense as I said earlier. Are you saying people should completly stop be using NC MAX for what it is clearly design for because it is op? If it is the case, did you said the same for people using the Magrider or the Prowler? How is your fight against tank mines(I'm using them as C4 btw)? For how long did you curse Air before you got those several AA buff (Check my ESF kills if you want to hate me even more)? Devs will never be able to balance everything perfectly. I may hate certain playstyle but so long as the "exploit" isn't a "game glitch", for the lack of proper terms, that wasn't intended from devs (unlike shotgun, Magrider or the Prowler AI skillz), it doesn't bothers me.

In the end, Chewy and I seem to be the only DVS posting in this thread and he isn't part of your "wall of shame." Since I haven't said a word on balance, that leave only Chewy that as far as I see, has remain fairly neutral. Amusingly, for you, that mean we are fighting "tooth and nail" on a fan site forum to convince the Devs that scatters are actually fine.

Just for fun. Want my opinion which was from Beta? You know, the one that wasn't calling MAX an abomination in a FPS game? Simple, remove shotgun from max and give a Gauss MG. Every single problem fix. Except the "PS1 flavor." Too bad Devs didn't like it back then.

Revanmug I don't hate DVS, or any one else in a computer game, or in real life for that matter, hate is a very strong word to bandy about.

Chewy comes across as a mature kind of guy that is trying to put together a reasoned argument. I may not agree with him but he makes his points concisely and he stays civil. By contrast Revanmug you seem to take just about everything personally and resort to ad hominem, though I see the occasional glimpse of reasoned argument.

Your right nobody is obligated to be courteous; but don't expect me or anyone else to take your opinions seriously if your rude and discourteous.

I like most people on this forum dislike any form of unfair advantage in the game, we know its not perfect and probably never will be, but hey that's what discussion about balance is all about. As for the Magrider or Prowler I didn't make a single post or thread attempting to argue that they should not be nerfed, I use both.

[typhaon]

Originally Posted by Empra

I agree hacksaws are OP.

TBH I don't think the others are OP....

If Hacksaws are OP, what adjustment would you make so that they aren't immediately a much weaker option than Dual Mercy?

[camycamera]

when every you see a hacksaw max, yell "HERE COME THE HAX!"

[Chewy]

Originally Posted by typhaon

If Hacksaws are OP, what adjustment would you make so that they aren't immediately a much weaker option than Dual Mercy?

What about removing the Hacksaw as we know it and turn it into a hacked up Gauss Saw slapped on a MAXes arm? Could even keep the name, a hacked up saw. Hacksaw! Thing is if that is done then the same would have to be done for the other factions. Remove one of their HMG weapons for a CQC version.

I can live with that. (maybe)

[Rumblepit]

thanks for taking the time to do all that work chewy. it must have taken quite a while . this is why i was asking for for the for the in game data. this debate could go on for years.
all i want to do is look at the numbers. if you guys are pulling half as many maxes as the tr and the vs and are getting 50% more kills then there is a problem. i suspect this would be the case and the debate would be over.
i know there are pros and cons to all AI maxes, but i dont think they are balanced.while testing done in a controlled environment can be good in some cases, most of the time its not really viable for combat situations.great work,and thank you.

why didnt you mention the problem with the dual cyc? you most have seen it.
the fact that outside 20ms 1 out of 5 shots always misses no matter how slow you fire or how good your aim is. outside 30ms 1 out of 3 shots always misses.

[Chewy]

Originally Posted by Rumblepit

thanks for taking the time to do all that work chewy. it must have taken quite a while . this is why i was asking for for the for the in game data. this debate could go on for years.
all i want to do is look at the numbers. if you guys are pulling half as many maxes as the tr and the vs and are getting 50% more kills then there is a problem. i suspect this would be the case and the debate would be over.
i know there are pros and cons to all AI maxes, but i dont think they are balanced.while testing done in a controlled environment can be good in some cases, most of the time its not really viable for combat situations.great work,and thank you.

why didnt you mention the problem with the dual cyc? you most have seen it.
the fact that outside 20ms 1 out of 5 shots always misses no matter how slow you fire or how good your aim is. outside 30ms 1 out of 3 shots always misses.

First of all, yeah that took a while to do. The NC and TR VR rooms weren't that bad (.5-2 hours for each take to get day time and uninterrupted runs) but I had to re-record the VS tests almost 4 full times thanks to assholes taking out my sundy and my targets after asking them not to. Don't even get me started on the upload times and Youtube processing hells.

As for the single shot misses with TR and VS MAXes. The point wasn't to get the number of shots for single fire kills at distances but number of hits for a kill as a base damage line. Burst/full auto fire numbers where suppose to account for misses and simulate in battle firing. With 50 rounds per mag in each weapon who the hell single shots at any range when that vastly ups kill times? Do it the TR way and cut the fucks in half with bullets!

I got into the TR role a little to deep with the Mercy MAX v MAX tests. I didn't want to stop firing at times. Maybe that's a reason TR and VS MAXes don't seem to last. They forget to take cover when seeing that they have ammo to shoot and can get another kill. NC MAXes are forced to run or get cover after every firing thanks to constant reloading, and that just so happens to be the same cover repair crews are in most times.

Hate to say it. But, maybe a little more thought is needed for TR and VS MAXes to stay in a fight. If they don't keep health in thought over everything else it can be easy to get lost in those weapons and end up getting killed before seeing the damage taken. To much fun using HMG weapons maybe

[Neutral Calypso]

Just gimmee my damn flamethrower and we can settle this discussion.