Plan C: We keep both, the Lattice AND the Hex

[Crator]

Originally Posted by NewSith

I stand by the firm belief that the root of all evils is the lack of incentive to defend.

I believe this line of thought is incorrect. Some have already stated this is mostly caused by the lack of more people playing. However, even if there were more people to cover the ghost caps from hex adjacency, I still think people wouldn't want to deal with it that often. If a team of players was required for the ghost cap, that's a different story. But a solo or couple of players going around ghost capping is not wanted for the most part.

Hex adjacency still provided way too many connections that made it possible for too many locations to be hacked at the same time. Yes, there are some people who wish to bunny hop around ghost capping and resecurring those ghost caps. But the amount of adjacent hexes and the terrain in between it all was way too much. Most people don't want to go chasing around ghost caps like that therefore there were too many of them happening. This is what the lattice helped to alleviate. Even if we had hex with more benefits, people primarily still don't want to have to go chase around ghost caps, or sit and wait for them...

[Baneblade]

Musical Hexes is on the way out. There is no saving it in any form.

[Rstormrider]

thats another thing. pro-hex always say "if they are ghost capping then take responsibility and go stop it!". to that we say, hell no. as mentioned above there are too many possibilities of attack. that also means when a guy does take on the task reluctantly to ditch an awesome fight in favor of chasing a cloaker he will stop a ghost cap only to be caught in a cycle.

lets say he goes to stop that one base from being ghosted. he moves in with a couple buddies and they take it back. the neighboring hex is now flashing so they go over there to stop it. then further out another base is flashing. they stop 3 ghost caps. only the 1st base is now flashing again so back to it they go. then the 3rd base they re-took starts flashing again.

yeah, this shit has happened and it needs to die in a fire. this is just one instance of ghost capping. pile this on with the many other disadvantages of the hex on top of the other issues PS2 has and now you have a reason as to why the player base has shrunk.

[Kerrec]

Originally Posted by Crator

I believe this line of thought is incorrect. Some have already stated this is mostly caused by the lack of more people playing. However, even if there were more people to cover the ghost caps from hex adjacency, I still think people wouldn't want to deal with it that often. If a team of players was required for the ghost cap, that's a different story. But a solo or couple of players going around ghost capping is not wanted for the most part.

Hex adjacency still provided way too many connections that made it possible for too many locations to be hacked at the same time. Yes, there are some people who wish to bunny hop around ghost capping and resecurring those ghost caps. But the amount of adjacent hexes and the terrain in between it all was way too much. Most people don't want to go chasing around ghost caps like that therefore there were too many of them happening. This is what the lattice helped to alleviate. Even if we had hex with more benefits, people primarily still don't want to have to go chase around ghost caps, or sit and wait for them...

And I have the FIRM belief that lack of incentive IS the problem with HEX and STILL is a problem with Lattice.

The way squads and platoons move in Hex is: Cap a base, repair for points if at all, move on to next. Rely on pubs to defend. Don't defend bases, you can't "advance" that way. Defending means a stalemate at best, or loss of territory at worse.

So what happens when both sides of the war want to be advancing all the time? You end up with ghostcapping and platoons or zergs avoiding each other. Team A wants to be on the offense and they want Team B to defend to make it a good fight. Team B wants to be on the offense and want team A to defend to make it a good fight. Both teams go on the offense... and bitch because they other team is taking uncontested territory instead of fighting back.

All that can be avoided by FORCING the players to defend, not by saying, "you can only fight here", but by saying, "If you don't defend and your enemy takes this base, you're going to lose XXX benefit". And when that benefit is WORTH something, then real strategy will form, ie: How much can I sacrifice to offense to move the front line and not lose this? How can I make the most of what I can send out on offense?

The problem with Hex is it could never be "fixed" until the resource system gets overhauled and "things" get tied to locations on the map. So the Hex never got a chance. Pro-Lattice players have been lobbying for Lattice as soon as they realized PS2 wasn't going to have it with no intention of trying to make Hex work, and now that Lattice is a sure thing, they're telling everyone to try and make Lattice work even though it's not "perfect".

Whatever... I'm not stupid. Lattice is here to stay. But the hypocrisy shown by the Pro-Lattice crowd is too much for me to just sit by and stay quiet.

[Crator]

Kerrec, I don't deny that benefits of bases should provide incentive to defend it. And they do already, don't they? However, the hex adjacency still allow TOO MANY connections to viably defend all of it. You can't deny that, can you? Resources are still tied to hexes, even with the lattice, are they not?

[GraniteRok]

In either case, Hex or Lattice, there has to be a minimum of two connections from any one base. This is to add an element of "oh shit they went that way" to the fight progression. Agreed, the Hex system had too many options however depending on the design, a lattice system can be the opposite.

[Kerrec]

Originally Posted by Crator

Kerrec, I don't deny that benefits of bases should provide incentive to defend it. And they do already, don't they? However, the hex adjacency still allow TOO MANY connections to viably defend all of it. You can't deny that, can you? Resources are still tied to hexes, even with the lattice, are they not?

I've been playing since December. I couldn't tell you what hex produces what resource. The only thing I know is owning Indar gives a 10% discount on Infantry resources, and that's the only real noticeable benefit for the territory capture metagame. But even then, not having Indar is not a gamechanger. Even without it, I still maintain a 40 stock of grenades, C4, Tank Mines, Revive grenades, Med packs and pull MAXes when my squad asks for it.

I am not a vehicle whore, but I personally have never pulled vehicles so fast that I was depleted in Armor or Air resources.

All that to say, that the resource system and what is currently tied to hexes is worthless. It provides ZERO incentive to the playerbase. I'm sure the large majority of players don't know what resource any given hex produces.

As for TOO MANY links... Alerts prove that wrong. When the territory matters, the platoon leaders take and defend territory in such a way that loners aren't even an issue. I've faced many NC and VS fronts that offered NO weakness, even when tackling it with a FULL SQUAD.

I just don't accept "Loners flipping points" as an argument. It only applies when the populations are grossly skewed. And in those cases, even the Lattice doesn't work.

[Crator]

Originally Posted by Kerrec

All that to say, that the resource system and what is currently tied to hexes is worthless. It provides ZERO incentive to the playerbase. I'm sure the large majority of players don't know what resource any given hex produces.

The main thing I think the resource system helps control is vehicle spam. This is because the resource cost to pull the more powerful vehicles is quite high. I also think twice about using certain infantry utilities (med kits, grenades, etc.) because I know they cost resources, albeit not that many so the resource gains from owned hexes don't affect them that much. Resources is also a way for SOE to get people to purchase boosters (for profit).

Originally Posted by Kerrec

As for TOO MANY links... Alerts prove that wrong. When the territory matters, the platoon leaders take and defend territory in such a way that loners aren't even an issue. I've faced many NC and VS fronts that offered NO weakness, even when tackling it with a FULL SQUAD.

I just don't accept "Loners flipping points" as an argument. It only applies when the populations are grossly skewed. And in those cases, even the Lattice doesn't work.

That very well may be true, but are the players that are ordered to defend all the areas that are spread out across all the hexes actually having fun just sitting there, doing nothing cause no one is attacking them at the time?

EDIT: And what happens when there isn't a push by an organized group like that? Be it with or without an alert?

[GraniteRok]

Originally Posted by Crator

The main thing I think the resource system helps control is vehicle spam. This is because the resource cost to pull the more powerful vehicles is quite high. I also think twice about using certain infantry utilities (med kits, grenades, etc.) because I know they cost resources, albeit not that many so the resource gains from owned hexes don't affect them that much. Resources is also a way for SOE to get people to purchase boosters (for profit).

True but when have you really come across a situation where you're low on any resource? I tend to be held up short by timers for vehicles and only for a few minutes or so, rather than short on resources. The only instance where I would see resources coming into play would be pilots at them moment. Even infantry resources, I've never run low. But I also tend to maintain maximum stock of the consumables for each session so I have no need to think of running low. Resources as they stand right now have little to no deterrent.

[Crator]

Originally Posted by GraniteRok

True but when have you really come across a situation where you're low on any resource? I tend to be held up short by timers for vehicles and only for a few minutes or so, rather than short on resources. The only instance where I would see resources coming into play would be pilots at them moment. Even infantry resources, I've never run low. But I also tend to maintain maximum stock of the consumables for each session so I have no need to think of running low. Resources as they stand right now have little to no deterrent.

Oh, I totally agree. But do you realize how much QQ would happen if they made resources more valuable (harder to get, especially via diminishing returns based on hex ownage)? Also, I think it would screw the balance of what players could do in the game currently (due to 3 empire footholds and only 3 continents).

[psijaka]

Originally Posted by Rstormrider

lets say he goes to stop that one base from being ghosted. he moves in with a couple buddies and they take it back. the neighboring hex is now flashing so they go over there to stop it. then further out another base is flashing. they stop 3 ghost caps. only the 1st base is now flashing again so back to it they go. then the 3rd base they re-took starts flashing again.

yeah, this shit has happened and it needs to die in a fire. this is just one instance of ghost capping. pile this on with the many other disadvantages of the hex on top of the other issues PS2 has and now you have a reason as to why the player base has shrunk.

Agreed. From time to time I've done as you've described as a lone ghost capper (and not out of hours either), except you often have the option of base 4, 5 and 6 as well. Fun but ultimately a bit lame; and I would much rather get involved in a mega fight the likes of which we are now seeing on Indar.

[psijaka]

Originally Posted by GraniteRok

In either case, Hex or Lattice, there has to be a minimum of two connections from any one base. This is to add an element of "oh shit they went that way" to the fight progression. Agreed, the Hex system had too many options however depending on the design, a lattice system can be the opposite.

I personally don't agree; there are plenty enough junctions in the lattice right now, and it's fine that there are some bases conected in a single lattice line.

And there's nothing quite like a protracted and intense battle pushing back and forth along a line of connected bases; experienced this on Ceres last night, pushing down from Howling Point before being stopped and pushed back from Mao. Just what I want from a game.

[GraniteRok]

Originally Posted by psijaka

I personally don't agree; there are plenty enough junctions in the lattice right now, and it's fine that there are some bases conected in a single lattice line.

And there's nothing quite like a protracted and intense battle pushing back and forth along a line of connected bases; experienced this on Ceres last night, pushing down from Howling Point before being stopped and pushed back from Mao. Just what I want from a game.

I agree and disagree. Yes, I like the big fights as well and single point progression in a lattice will do just that, allow for a raging fight for conceivably hours on end. This is also part of problem of not enough options in the lattice. It boils down to what is wanted more, the intense fight or the ability to flank and capture. I say both. Maybe not every point needs two options but it there needs to be a litte more connectivity in the current one. Without it, it'll end up being a stalemate and therefore what ends up being the accomplishment? It becomes a question of what's the point of the game. Kills or conquest?

[Crator]

Originally Posted by GraniteRok

I agree and disagree. Yes, I like the big fights as well and single point progression in a lattice will do just that, allow for a raging fight for conceivably hours on end. This is also part of problem of not enough options in the lattice. It boils down to what is wanted more, the intense fight or the ability to flank and capture. I say both. Maybe not every point needs two options but it there needs to be a litte more connectivity in the current one. Without it, it'll end up being a stalemate and therefore what ends up being the accomplishment? It becomes a question of what's the point of the game. Kills or conquest?

But if that's the case, a long stalemate, then just move out of the area and take another lattice path away from the current location you are at.

[Kerrec]

Originally Posted by Crator

But if that's the case, a long stalemate, then just move out of the area and take another lattice path away from the current location you are at.

I other words, avoid a place that is defended to go attack a place that is not? Sound familiar?