MAX Balance Part 1: NC

[Lucidius]

NEW META:

1 Gun for Slugs.
1 Gun for Buckshot.

(C) Luci, GU08

[Rumblepit]

thats very true, but everyone always forgets the problems the come with fast rof guns in this game.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZv7Os1jYms its plagued tr weapons since launch.and still do to this day i have hit detection issues with tr weapons.
that compounded with random bullet deviation.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ar6vK95pQ

you can see it when the test is at 20 m. 2 to 3 bullets out of every 10 will miss no matter what at that range. 30 m 3 to 4 out of every 10 will miss. 40 m 5 to 6.... factor all this in and youll understand why the tr has been sub par .

[Chewy]

Originally Posted by Rumblepit

thats very true, but everyone always forgets the problems the come with fast rof guns in this game.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZv7Os1jYms its plagued tr weapons since launch.and still do to this day i have hit detection issues with tr weapons.
that compounded with random bullet deviation.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ar6vK95pQ

you can see it when the test is at 20 m. 2 to 3 bullets out of every 10 will miss no matter what at that range. 30 m 3 to 4 out of every 10 will miss. 40 m 5 to 6.... factor all this in and youll understand why the tr has been sub par .

I hate the no damage crap like the rest, but it isn't a balance thing just a bug that everyone gets. Recently flak has been plagued with no damage while showing effects and it has been killing us from not being able to fight of air.

For the misses Id take a HMG over shotguns with those rite rates. 50% hits at 40m? Thank you sir! Shotguns get to those numbers by 15m-20m and are hurt more by misses thanks to having 1/8 the mag size with 2 times the reload of TR and VS MAXes.

I'll agree that cap points and some bases can be CQC but most of my fights are not. Having to get to a building can be a bigger fight than the one inside it. Hell, just walking around an AMP station going building to building is often full of fights well past 15m. Same with ground floor of tech plants and even bio-labs are filled with areas that are bigger than 15m.

[Gatekeeper]

The balance question posed by the scattercannon isn't that different to shotguns in general - is the up-close killing power worth the loss of ranged ability?

I use shotguns most of the time these days, not just in biolabs and towers, but in all base types (and sometimes between bases, if the cover is decent). I certainly run into situations where I get gunned down at range, but more often than not I can press into CQB and then dominate people who are using longer-ranged weapons.

It's not that shotguns are so powerful that other weapons don't have a chance in CQB, but even a small advantage can make the difference between life and death. If I can kill an LMG user slightly faster than he can kill me, then I win and I get to heal and keep going. That advantage is hard to quantify with pure damage numbers and theory-crafting, but it's a very real thing in the actual game.

So for shotguns in general, I'd say the answer is yes. The trade-off is definitely worth it. Whether it's worth it for scattercannons I can't say, since I don't play NC - but they seem plenty dangerous when I'm playing against them.

[Maginnis]

Originally Posted by Gatekeeper

The balance question posed by the scattercannon isn't that different to shotguns in general - is the up-close killing power worth the loss of ranged ability?

I agree, but keep in mind that the real issue is not just TTK, but also overall function. How does the element perform in real-world terms?

Question #1: Can the TR/VS/NC Max be used effectively to control a point with proper infantry support? In general, I would argue all 3 Max units can. The Aegis shield is quite good for helping to hold control points, provided the room in question allows some range of movement. If the room is too small or in a hallway, the shield does little to prevent a suicide C4/AP mine attack, and it also does nothing to prevent the room from being stormed. These threats are real for any faction’s Max units.

My point is, in many tactical situations, the real threat is not small-arms from a few infantry. All Max units can handle a few infantry at a time when supported by friendly infantry. I think any objective person can agree on my points thus far?

To my real point: Where does the real difference lie between the factions’ Max units? Suppressive fire at medium range is the key difference in my opinion. Both the TR and VS maxes have the clip size and reserve ammo capability to spam entry points in larger infantry fights at medium range. This includes flight pad doorways in bio labs, garages in towers, and certainly doorways into rooms which have control points. The NC Max is effective at point-blank or under 10m. It’s useful for close-range choke point control primarily.

Why does this matter in PS2? Simple… the game is focused around territory control, and effectively resource control. Max units are the only infantry unit that can’t be insta-gibbed by 1-2 head shots or a grenade (excluding HA with an active shield). This means they are a critical part of both offense and defensive infantry actions in fights larger than squad v squad. Since the NC max is good for choke points primarily, their use in many fights is questionable, especially from an offensive standpoint. For VS, ZOE plus Blueshift allows VS maxes to move around bases pretty well, especially tech plants and amp stations where there is a fair amount of cover, and TR maxes can be used for suppressive fire at very decent ranges with fractures (not saying OP, but decent and with good survivability due to range).

Going back to Aegis shield, it makes NC Max units tougher to kill from the frontal arc. This is cool, but as others have said, it prevents the Max from firing, and it has a minor delay. Without collision detection, it has no impact on room-clearing game mechanics (grenades), it can’t stop infantry from running past you through a doorway to drop AP mines/C4, and it does nothing to mitigate concussion or flashbangs. This means that it’s of limited usefulness in protracted standoffs and its use functionally eliminates the NC Max from a firepower standpoint when activated.

Since the patch, I’ve noticed the sharp increase in TTK with my Max, to the point where I don’t pull it much anymore, unless I’m doing ops outfit with 2+ outfit squads and they ask for Maxes. Yes, I can still kill infantry 1v1. It’s not completely broken, but honestly, why spend the resources when I can kill more quickly, have more utility, and often stay alive longer as Heavy Assault?

I have spent a reasonable number of certs on my max, but I'm extremely hesitant to spend a additional station cash for new weapons and another 1000 certs for extended mags on Max with almost no range and a tiny ammo reserve. I don't see that there's enough value there. I plan to continue to monitor the topic to see if anything is tweaked enough to make the NC Max more viable.

[AThreatToYou]

I would either suggest a NS Infantry weapon that would allow all MAXs to be competitive at range, or change the ScatMAX to be a more accurate mid to long range platform and then provide an NS MAX shotgun.

Instead of close range bang-em-up scenarios where MAX units are already vulnerable [to C4/deci], and may need to be balanced on an extreme of UP or OP, I say we switch the NC MAX to the niche that is generally associated with weapons that pack a higher damage per shot with a lower ROF: mid to long range. We then keep the other MAX units in the niche generally associated with high ROF, closer ranges [aside from Blueshift max].

My other point with that is, I don't want "just another" MAX. The ScatMAX is unique relative to the other ones. I want to keep it that way. Giving our MAXs a longer-range AI option would also help us deal with Harassers, which we are a bit gimped on by not having either the Lancer or the FracMAX.

[Chewy]

Originally Posted by AThreatToYou

I would either suggest a NS Infantry weapon that would allow all MAXs to be competitive at range, or change the ScatMAX to be a more accurate mid to long range platform and then provide an NS MAX shotgun.

Instead of close range bang-em-up scenarios where MAX units are already vulnerable [to C4/deci], and may need to be balanced on an extreme of UP or OP, I say we switch the NC MAX to the niche that is generally associated with weapons that pack a higher damage per shot with a lower ROF: mid to long range. We then keep the other MAX units in the niche generally associated with high ROF, closer ranges [aside from Blueshift max].

My other point with that is, I don't want "just another" MAX. The ScatMAX is unique relative to the other ones. I want to keep it that way. Giving our MAXs a longer-range AI option would also help us deal with Harassers, which we are a bit gimped on by not having either the Lancer or the FracMAX.

So a Gauss Saw copy? Maybe with a 300 ROF and 170-180 damage at 10m and 120-130 at 75m with a mag size of 45 and ammo pool of 360 (9 mags total like the others)?

On paper that sounds good to me. But without having it in game to feel the COF I couldn't say if it would be.

[Gatekeeper]

I think a NS MAX weapon that's effective at range would be a good addition - then NC who really don't like using shotguns will still have an AI option. It would need to be balanced so as to give VS & TR some kind of utility as well though.

Also a mid-long range NS MAX weapon would compliment the MAX flame-throwers well, whenever they get around to adding those.