Infinite revive isn't balanced for zerg/large scale play

[Ghoest9]

Originally Posted by moosepoop

infinite revives promotes suicidal behavior, because there is no consequence. as a medic I routinely revive entire squads within seconds.

For the most part this is false.
I ussually play solo - in base attack where there are friendlies.
I play really aggressive and die a lot.
Usually this means dying where you cant be revived in any timely fashion so you respawn.

[BlaxicanX]

As well, suicidal play is one of the most efficient ways to play this game. When you're in a meat-grinder like a biolab, where you're trying to push into the lab via the teleporter or landing pads, it isn't the "cautious players" who poke their heads out of the shield fields and pop back in when they take damage who take the base. It's the fools who leroy jenkins as deep into the base as they can and gain ground who do so- and that takes dying an awful lot.

When a biolab fight starts, the K/D of everyone involved probably drops 50%. lol

[bpostal]

Originally Posted by BlaxicanX

As well, suicidal play is one of the most efficient ways to play this game. When you're in a meat-grinder like a biolab, where you're trying to push into the lab via the teleporter or landing pads, it isn't the "cautious players" who poke their heads out of the shield fields and pop back in when they take damage who take the base. It's the fools who leroy jenkins as deep into the base as they can and gain ground who do so- and that takes dying an awful lot.

When a biolab fight starts, the K/D of everyone involved probably drops 50%. lol

The momentum is the key issue with this particular example. The tempo needs to be switched from the offensive to the defensive factions.

[moosepoop]

Originally Posted by Ghoest9

For the most part this is false.
I ussually play solo - in base attack where there are friendlies.
I play really aggressive and die a lot.
Usually this means dying where you cant be revived in any timely fashion so you respawn.

some players don't need incentives to be suicidal, they are just stupid.
the cert grind can also promote blind rushing. if you go slow and be tactical, you don't gain any certs.

[Snipefrag]

I somewhat agree with this, its a slightly romantic notion of a small force fighting off a large enemy.. But it used to happen in PS1. It really doesn't happen that often in PS2, extremely quick revives without limit are surely one of the big reasons behind this.

[Figment]

Originally Posted by Badjuju

On the contrary, infinite revives are the only thing that keeps smaller coordinated squads in the game IMO, especially if they are attacking. Smaller forces would not stand a chance in any attack or defending a base with scattered objectives with limited revives.

Bullox. That small group needs less revives than a zerg.

Say you can heal 5 people total, a zerg will run out sooner than a small group. Besides, since that small group is usualy on the defensive, they'll have access to a nearby fixed spawn. They simply have less need for INFINITE revives. Zergs on the other hand can have 20 die and then one medic revive all 20. That small group would have no chance if that medic wouldn't run out of bandages.

[Carbon Copied]

The idea of an inventory to tailor their specialities of healing gel and revive grenades for the support classes - focussing on the medic though and as a dedicated medic I'd welcome it as opposed to an ammo counter. As well as just echoing the points made by Figment and those in a similar stance; the idea of having more thought behind the revive rate than just looking for the next dead body is a good step I think.
This should also pave way for non-medics to think more about what they're doing rather than just throwing themselves endlessly into harms way (both attack and defense) - ergo you don't need a "spawn cost" mechanic as much because per life to rez does actually mean alot more.

Thats just my marginally wandering off topic interpretation though.

[Figment]

Originally Posted by Stardouser

I see it ALL the time. 30 guys hole up in a capture point room and EVEN when their sunderer is blown away, 10 guys with the benefit of their FIXED BASE respawn can't get them out due to revives (edit: I don't mean to imply that 10 guys should have a great chance of wiping them out, but after 10 minutes cap time, all 30 are still alive without respawning. This is what "no losses" means). How do you argue against that point?

Revives have always been like this, but I think it's only been recently that the majority of outfits/zergs figured out that it was this easy.

Add the infinite ammo packs to this and you basically have a no-attrition situation.

[PredatorFour]

You know what if they change the medic class i might as well just stop playing. So far everything i have liked in this game they have changed at some point, dumbing it down and making it nowhere near as fun. The medic class is the last straw for me.

[moosepoop]

Originally Posted by PredatorFour

You know what if they change the medic class i might as well just stop playing. So far everything i have liked in this game they have changed at some point, dumbing it down and making it nowhere near as fun. The medic class is the last straw for me.

if balancing the game will make you quit, good bye.

[KesTro]

Originally Posted by PredatorFour

You know what if they change the medic class i might as well just stop playing. So far everything i have liked in this game they have changed at some point, dumbing it down and making it nowhere near as fun. The medic class is the last straw for me.

I wouldn't consider it a dumbing down of the medic. Medic is pretty dumb with it's ease factor as is. All I'm saying is that I would eventually like to see the game move away from 'infinite sustainability'.

In order for a lot of this to happen though we have to get away from the lattice system as it is now. IE: If you don't zerg you fail. Anyone remember those little 12v12 skirmishes? I miss those, don't happen nearly enough anymore.

Now with that being said the medic wouldn't be the only class touched with a change, if they change anything with the medics infinite revives you can be damn sure the engineer is going to get hit as well.

[PredatorFour]

Originally Posted by moosepoop

if balancing the game will make you quit, good bye.

It's not though is it? It's people getting pissed off for the sake of something and falling off the high horse. It's not game breaking.

And like Kestro said, if they change medic then engy will have to be changed, then every other class to 'balance' around these changes.

[Figment]

"Dumbing down" would imply "increasing the ease with which something is done and reducing the need for tactical choices".

INFINITE revives (for example):

• ...removes the tactical choice of "who do I heal?" and leaves it at "who do I heal first?".
• ...removes the logistical travel need to and from a supply point. Making the medic more independent and invulnerable to supply attrition with regards to healing.
• ...removes logistical travel from large groups as they don't need to respawn far away regularly.
• ...thus removes attrition from large groups when used in numbers, making it easier to sustain a large assault.
• ...allows friendlies to be less careful with their lives as death comes at no logistical travel cost and therefore stimulates lemming behaviour.

Basically, infinite revives dumbs down the tactical side of the game tremendously in favour of large groups and at the cost of tactical play of small groups.

Originally Posted by PredatorFour

It's not game breaking.

Actually, it is when used in large groups, it completely removes attrition as a valid strategy for small groups. Attrition is the basis on which guerilla warfare works.

And like Kestro said, if they change medic then engy will have to be changed, then every other class to 'balance' around these changes.

That's not the point he was making and he didn't mean that negatively as you try to make it sound.

Medic and Engineer are the only two units with INFINITE supplies of repair/heal.


No other classes would be affected by a change to finite healing or repair.

[PredatorFour]

Ok, had this game been designed like PS1 environments then yeh i would be for this. But this is a BF clone, on a massive scale. So it works imo. If it was closed spaces where you had chance to take heed of who needs healing first then you could determine who got your juice. In an open mass frantic killfest that is PS2, you can't really make a decision who needs it the most, as most of the time people are dead in 2 seconds anyway.

[Figment]

So basically, you're saying it's the most dumbed down fight game in the history of medic design because there's no decision making involved, whatsoever.

Then at least you can't complain they'd dumb it down by changing it.