This game just became officially p2w

[Timealude]

Originally Posted by AuntLou

I wish they would just say "Yep sure it's pay to win and that is how it's going to be." Cause seriously why do you guys even care?

Play the game, it's freaken GREAT! Keep in mind they have to make money to keep it up. Pretty basic shit there guys. Whats the worse thing that can happen here? A new player gets a step up and doesn't get farmed for his first 30 levels?

I think its simply that there is a negative view of free to play games from a lot of people who enjoyed the pay to play model.

[Artalion]

Wrel posted a video on this that is very persuasive. He uses the term "P4C" or Pay for convenience to describe PS2 and I think P4C is more accurate than either F2P or P2W.

I think the give away that this isn't P2W is that you can use certs or SC to unlock. If Sony wanted to be shifty, they would offer different versions of the same equipment that would only be unlocked via SC. That's not what we're seeing. What we're seeing is that they've added another way to get the same thing.

Because it's just the same thing, a player that bought everything with SC instead of Certs isn't going to have a greater advantage on the battlefield. And that makes sense, because skill is more than just having a certed load out; it's knowing how to use it. In a similar manner, buying things with SC doesn't make you less of a player than if you did it with certs; because there is more to being a good player than just how you got your equipment.

I think that SOE has been very good about listening to player feedback and they know that we watch them like hawks. They need to make money in order to fuel development; so what they are doing is looking for the threshold between P4C and P2W; and they are using player feedback to judge when that threshold has been crossed.

This change doesn't cross the threshold in my opinion.

[Mune]

The day that SOE adds in auraxium bullets that do more damage (or whatever) for SC is the day that we can start complaining (hint - they wont).

Nothing I've seen them allow be done with station cash has me crying foul. As was mentioned above (and in many other posts) they have a model where, if you want to, you can pay to speed up the experience gain/accumulation of stuff process. I see no problem with that.

If a new player wants to dump some cash into this game, support it's development, and get a little headstart instead of starting from scratch, then go for it I say. I will die to his rocket pods (or whatever) with dignity and a distinct lack of complaining, with little or no regard for what his battle rank might be.

As for the original post, I would like to point out that weapon attachments (excluding the MAX larger magazine ones AFAIK) have downsides as well, making them sidegrades. Popular sidegrades mind you, but a player without a forward grip enjoys a slightly faster equip time for example.

[Mox]

Originally Posted by Figment

Not pay to win if you can unlock it through gameplay tbh.

Pay to speed up progress, more like.

Sir, thats just naive!

[Gimpylung]

Originally Posted by Mox

Sir, thats just naive!

Explain why it's naive without the decorations if possible.

[Bags]

So what I've gathered from this thread is that most people think if cash is involved it's p2w.

[Gimpylung]

Originally Posted by Bags

So what I've gathered from this thread is that most people think if cash is involved it's p2w.

Yeah, there seems to be a very knee jerk response to any revenue stream that isn't about cosmetics. Dunno how people expect this game to survive.

Do people think that a cert unlocked attachment is less powerful than the same attachment unlocked with SC or something.

Nothing is denied to a free player aside from some shiney stuff.

People going on about 'grinding' in this game amuses me too. Why are they even playing if they regard playing as a grind. I don't recall ever having to redo a 'kill ten rats' mission 2 dozen times to unlock some Magic Underpants of +1 Flak Resist

[KesTro]

I personally don't understand all the people crying P2W either. You want an example of a pay to win game? Look up Hero Online or APB. THOSE GAMES, are p2w clear cut. Until a previous poster mentioned; you can buy clear upgrades with SC and 'not' certs than this game will not be pay2win. For a lot of people it may be frustrating to see those with disposable income purchase everything but let's be honest, they already were 8 months ago. What's the difference now, honestly? A couple hundred certs that you can make in a day with how much XP SOE just throws at your face?

[obuw]

I find it amusing that some people think being able to buy some cheap useless attachments that practically have no benefit with SC suddenly makes the game pay2win.

The game IS pay2win. Has been that way since the beginning.

1- Vehicle weapons. Tank and aircraft secondaries are practically mandatory and more than double your firepower. All cost 750-1000 certs.

2- Ridiculously powerful "sidegrades" like pump action shotguns and SMGs, 450 damage revolvers. All cost 1000 certs.

3- Dark Camo that makes you 75% harder to spot.

4- Worst pay2win of all: membership bonuses + resource boosts, giving you infinite resources, allowing you to throw grenades and spam maxes nonstop.

Don't get me wrong though, I'm not complaining. They have to make money through something. And I don't feel forced to spend money on the game to stay competitive. But anyone who claims the game is not pay2win is just kidding themselves.

If anything, being able to purchase attachments with SC makes it less pay2win imo. I'd rather have some fool spend his SC purchasing useless attachments for his gauss or carv, rather than purchase lolpods, a smg, black camo or a pump action shotgun.

[alisagreen]

Yes, which was the case with the IP they "adapted" over time as well, because they didn't get enough money out of the cosmetic sales.
http://www.***********/

[MaxDamage]

Under "Secrets:

[Natir]

Originally Posted by Bags

So what I've gathered from this thread is that most people think if cash is involved it's p2w.

Umm no.


SOE, from the start of PS2, has implemented ways to completely skip progression and allow you to unlock weapons immediately, if you wanted to with money. The resource system with the boosts is awful close to pay to win as it allows you to endlessly use up more resources than a free player. Even with the implants, SOE introduces the worse possible scenario and then tones it down a tiny bit and just allows you to purchase them with certs... and allows them now drop at an even slower rate than when they were introduced. Funny how over the patches, implants drop fewer and fewer (same thing with charges). SOE even now allows you to purchase all types of attachments for for money. These are not side-grades, they are direct upgrades to the stock version and for anyone that argues that, well, you shouldn't be in this argument because you are just being ignorant and arguing for the sake of argument at that point.

What SOE has done is test the waters to see how their cash grab schemes work. If it is successful, try something else. People don't like that idea, implement something else but change it a little bit. This resource buying will be going in, but they will allow you to buy it with certs as well and maybe change it up a tiny bit. They are right on the edge of the line of the early definition of pay to win.

What is next? Buy full loadouts or buy certification packages and become a BR100 when you are a BR1? Can't let you buy certs with certs now can you? Well, you could gamble and buy a box of random certs for some certs I guess...

In every argument I have seen here with this "P2W" argument and most on Reddit, just use the argument of "I'm BR100, if a new player wants to skip everything let them." So, is that what the free players think who are new or are still unlocking most of their class? I don't think so. A lot of people are stuck in this entitlement bubble where because they have progressed to such a point, they just don't care about the normal progression of what a MMO is supposed to be about. This is a MMOFPS where there is not much in the way of new growth. These schemes SOE keeps doing does not help that as well.

With these schemes and the overwhelming majory of PS2 players being veterans, they feel obligated to throw down a bunch of money to stay competitive and that is not something a new player should have to do and most simply do not do that so they just quit. If that goes on, this game will never bring new blood into the game. This game is supposed to be free to play, not subscription or box priced. What SOE is doing is essentially slowly adopting a SW:TOR business model piece by piece. They are slowly forcing you to throw down money in order to stay competitive with the next guy. That is not a true free to play business model like what everyone thought it would be when Higby and Smedley talked about their business model. Weird how over time that changes... If only they could be releasing more content on a regular basis then maybe they wouldn't have to do these quick cash grabs for a financially troubled company.

[obuw]

The resource system with the boosts is awful close to pay to win as it allows you to endlessly use up more resources than a free player.

But the game has already been like that since launch. I see these videos all the time where someone with a massive resource bonus from membership / boosts just casually tosses 3 frag grenades (or worse; concussion aka IWIN grenades) around corners every chance he gets. Or LA's that randomly toss bricks of C4 everywhere just to kill a single person. Or all those people who use medkits nonstop, everytime they take a sliver of damage. Or engies / infils that drop proxy mines everywhere every time they respawn.

Now that I think more about it, I'm getting a feeling that maybe it's the members complaining about this change. Right now the game is a level playing ground for people with memberships + boosts. With the nano refill they will be outclassed by cash whales who can pour infinite money into the game. They don't like the idea of no longer being at the top of the food chain.

[Ghost Runner]

Originally Posted by Artalion

Wrel posted a video on this that is very persuasive. He uses the term "P4C" or Pay for convenience to describe PS2 and I think P4C is more accurate than either F2P or P2W.

I think the give away that this isn't P2W is that you can use certs or SC to unlock. If Sony wanted to be shifty, they would offer different versions of the same equipment that would only be unlocked via SC. That's not what we're seeing. What we're seeing is that they've added another way to get the same thing.

Because it's just the same thing, a player that bought everything with SC instead of Certs isn't going to have a greater advantage on the battlefield. And that makes sense, because skill is more than just having a certed load out; it's knowing how to use it. In a similar manner, buying things with SC doesn't make you less of a player than if you did it with certs; because there is more to being a good player than just how you got your equipment.

I think that SOE has been very good about listening to player feedback and they know that we watch them like hawks. They need to make money in order to fuel development; so what they are doing is looking for the threshold between P4C and P2W; and they are using player feedback to judge when that threshold has been crossed.

This change doesn't cross the threshold in my opinion.

I dont know every thing I have experianced with this game tells me it is very fair to play for free, they even give you a free shotgun now so you dont have to buy one, all the starter weapons are pretty nice so if you never invested a single cert you can be very competitive in this game still. So no pay to win it is not, pay to not play i definitely think it is, that or as stated above by Artalion Pay for convience.