Lasher NOT Recommended - Page 2

Madcow · 2003-08-20, 04:28 PM

I want to make sure I'm reading your stats correctly, because a few things don't make sense to me:

code:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Gun ROF Clip 5m 20m dmg/clip dmg/5sec sustained fire (sec) fastest kill (sec)
JH 2.3 16 48/64 12/16 1792 1288 6.96 0.97
LS 3.6 20 21/8 18/8 580 522 5.56 2.39
MG 7.6 100 10/8 9/8 1800 684 13.16 1.83--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It appears that the Jackhammer at near point blank does 48 health damage per shot, and fires 2.3 shots per second. It then states that the fastest kill is .97 seconds. Based on the stats it would appear to me that it would take 3 shots to actually get a kill, and that it would take over a second to fire 3 shots (1.3 secs?). Maybe wearing away your armor has something to do with it, but I'm not sure where 'fastest kill' comes from as we don't know what armor we're talking about.
From point blank range the Lasher does 21 health damage with a faster rate of fire (3.6 per second). Therefore it would take 5 Lasher shots, assuming direct hits, to take down a soft target. Based on the ROF you list, that should be 1.39 seconds. In other words, whoever fires first wins.

Once you move out to 20m, the story changes. Suddenly it appears to be 9 JH shots to take out a target (3.9 seconds) and 6 Lasher shots (again making a direct hit assumption that would be a near impossibility with the Lasher) which would take 1.67 seconds.

I don't even want to get into the MCG numbers as it assumes hits for each bullet which is just as impossible as hitting with each orb from 20m, but the MCG doesn't have the benefit of the lash.

Please let me know where my numbers are wrong, it's very possible I'm reading the posted numbers incorrectly because it's not completely clear. As it stands for me, it appears that the Lasher is just barely less powerful than the JH at close range and absolutely owns it further out. Not sure why that's worth complaining about.

00AgentDuck · 2003-08-20, 04:37 PM

I'm pretty sure the phoenix does 25 health damage and 25 armor damage, well at least to agile. I've been shot at several times by it in agile. The funny time was when a guy tried to kill me with one and I had only a beamer as a gun. He missed me several times and when he did hit me I could easily just use a medkit. Now the thing which is really sad is if he tried to do that now I'm a medic/engineer so I can heal myself both armor and health, I got medkits, and if I got personnal sheild or advanced regen, it would be near impossible and he shouldn't waste his time. Oh and this is with my VS guy.

Saxywolf · 2003-08-20, 05:09 PM

Madcow - VERY good point. the calc I'm (currently) using assumes damage is applied continuously.

at 20m the story change alot... it's who is stupid enough not to close the distance or get behind large cover or save ammo till situation changes (lasher anyway) or crouch or...

Intruder · 2003-08-20, 05:45 PM

If were going to get into numbers, we should take into account alot more factors, like for example, cone of fire vs hit and miss ratio, time to kill vs ability to repair/heal, after all a weapon in a test environment usually never reflects the weapon in combat, Of course theres alot more factors in a kill to just how much damage and rate of fire.

But nice stats none the less..

Cease · 2003-08-20, 09:56 PM

What am I missing here? This thread is apparently trying to say the Lasher sucks now. Yet the Lasher post-nerf does no less damage to RF armor than it did pre-nerf. Obviously grunt armor and Max/Vehicle armor are on different tables. All I am seeing here is that the damage dropoff is in, and that between 5-20m the Lasher is far superior than the other two HA weapons.

"uber" Lasher:
22/8 21/8 21/8

"nerfed" Lasher:
21/8 18/8 11/8

Good showing of the power the Lasher had at range before the nerf and that the nerf was needed.

Pyrrus · 2003-08-20, 10:00 PM

I've yet to be killed by a heavy assualt weapon other than the jackhammer and chaingun since the nerf.

Cease · 2003-08-20, 10:31 PM

Lemme guess, you're a Vanu player?

Katanaboy · 2003-08-21, 03:01 AM

ow you walked right into that one, pyrrus.

Pyrrus · 2003-08-21, 05:43 AM

Yes I play for VS and just stating the obvious. Before the latest nerf we actually had a heavy assualt weapon that earned the respect of the other empires. Now all they do is laugh at it. Which buy the way can help in sticky situations. Before they stop laughing at you for pointing it at them if you turn it around and hit them sharply with the blunt end you may get lucky and deliver a fatal blow to the head.

Eukament · 2003-08-21, 06:38 AM

Lasher is difficult to use, since the balls have a pretty slow travelling time. Ive died to Cycler users in both Agile and Reinforced Armor several times because too many of the Orbs miss the target at close range. Best way to deal with a Lasher user is getting on their left or right and keeping that position. Its hell leading the Orbs when the enemy are very close.

So if you are very close to the Lasher user or pretty far away he isnt very hard to bring down. I get most of my Lasher kills at medium range. So save that surge, and use it wisely =)

shadowseed · 2003-08-21, 06:46 AM

I have to disagree. The lasher is devistating indoors, as you can just paint the walls and dont need to score direct hits to splash damage your enemy, hell!, you dont even have to be able to see your target!.

The JH can be devistating, but you have to get real close to do any decent damage with it, and most of the time, you will need to reload before you can kill you opponent with it, which takes so long, you dead before you reload.

The most potent weapon i would say is the MG, with its high ROF and it large clip size more than make up for its lack of punch per round. It is also easy to spray your targets so you dont need such a great aim.

GeistX · 2003-08-21, 10:14 AM

Originally posted by Eukament
Lasher is difficult to use, since the balls have a pretty slow travelling time...

So if you are very close to the Lasher user or pretty far away he isnt very hard to bring down. I get most of my Lasher kills at medium range. So save that surge, and use it wisely =)

I've found an effective tactic when going against a faster opponent is to close with them and then shoot their feet. Not as effective at hitting them dead on, but you have a better chance of doing at least some damage (i.e. lash) because you hit the orb near them, and remember there is no location based damage in PS, so a hit in the legs/feet do as much as against the head/torso.

Another tactic is to sucker them back into an ambush (if you can). I have noticed that a lot of people like to gang up on the lone Lasher user, so act panic and fire wildly to lure them into a false sense of confidence while backing up slowly over that hill, where members of your squad are waiting...

Even after the nerf the Lasher is still respectable up close and in closed rooms, or just trying to lodge someone out of hiding around a corner. Yes it is no longer as effective against MAXes, but taking the Lancer or getting a special assault cert helps with that.

Cease · 2003-08-21, 12:02 PM

Yes I play for VS and just stating the obvious. Before the latest nerf we actually had a heavy assualt weapon that earned the respect of the other empires. Now all they do is laugh at it. Which buy the way can help in sticky situations. Before they stop laughing at you for pointing it at them if you turn it around and hit them sharply with the blunt end you may get lucky and deliver a fatal blow to the head.

Por fa fucking vor! Take a look at those numbers man. Under 20m the damage dropoff is VERY minimal. Even with its nerfed damaged at 20m it still does signifigantly more damage than the other two HA weapons. The ROF hasn't been changed, the clip size hasn't been changed, so its effectiveness for close quarters combat fighting has barely been changed! You said yourself BEFORE the nerf the weapon was respected. HA is for close quarters combat and in that regard the Lasher hasn't changed much at all.

I know it may seem like a lot of extra work to actually have to consider carrying a 2nd weapon around now for med range assault and killing maxes, but the other empires seem handle it pretty well.

Aegis · 2003-08-21, 12:18 PM

Anyone who thinks the post nerf Lasher is uselsss is a real n00b.

Saxywolf · 2003-08-21, 02:06 PM

Intruder, I'm working on getting more numbers, but even then you still have to consider some things as factors.

Cease, the lasher doesn't suck. It is merely disadvantaged by having severly less damage per clip.

Eukament, you're correct. It is a difficult weapon to use in the first place, made more so by the lack of ammo factor of safety.

shadowseed, why would you be painting all the walls and doors if you didn't see a atrget yet? There are too many doors and walls to be painting them all the time. Even if we did paint them, the reload is so long and often that you can easily surge in and kill the Lasher user.

shadowseed, why would the JH have to reload before killing most people? they get 16 shots, and 3 can kill.

GeistX, from what I can tell, shooting at the feet is pointless.

lashing only starts at 7m
lashes do not do splash damage on impact

<7m and it's hard to do enough damage (you have to dirctly hit to make a shot count at all)
>7m and you may not be doing enough damage (many shots will only be doing lash damage)

<I will definately be looking into this>

Cease, this started the thread:

I know they nerfed it and all, but did anyone bother to check to make sure it wasn't already nerfed vs Reinforced armor?!!!

Before we could use our lasher against MAXs and VEHs at most ranges. Now with less damage and damage degredation, it's not very effective at all in those situiations. Thus it was "respected" for being quite useful in many situations. Now that it has been reduced to being useful in only a few situations, it has become apparent that in those situations it is not up to snuff.

At minimum it needs more ammo per clip to give the Lasher user a factor of safety that the other HA weapons have always had.

Improve damage, speed, RoF, CoF you say? That would only make it a different weapon.

Improve lash damage, radius, or minimum distace for lashing? At best these are what you can play with. I have yet to test lashing so I cannot comment. I would bet non of you have as well. Therefore until that time, non of us are qualified to comment on lashing.