1984/America - Page 2

MrVicchio · 2003-01-13, 12:58 AM

Hmmm....

I am going to bite the bullet on this one here...

Take African Americans... Too many come from poor inner cities and single parent homes. Too many are barely given a 6th grade education... and too many of them get jobs, collage scoalerships and the what not, to help them out (If I could find the DMANED link I would, that shows that a large portion of minorites as a whole that get those AA "perks" fail collage and or fail in the real world because they were given such a poor start in life)

What do the Democrats, champions of the minorites do to solve this? More AA and more money to "help" these kids... What do Repulicans want to do? Give them vouchers so they can get REAL education as kids and REALLY make a difference...

Here is my big issue on all of this, The real answer lies not in giving them "Perks" IMHO that is saying "You cant succeed without help, you arent good enough." That is demeaning, wrong and bigoted. I believe fully in "Here are the tools, take them and make a life for yourself, you don't need help, you can do it, just take the ball and run with it" Sadly, that is considered racist while the liberal view is considered PC good! WTF?

BTW Racism is evil, wrong and has no place in this world, anyone that believes in that crap.. dshould be shot.

Warborn · 2003-01-13, 01:09 AM

So what do you do? Allow minority groups to fall further or try to give them assistance. Some look at it as a survival of the fittest. Some would prefer to give the less fortunate assistance. Assistance means giving them better chances than someone equally qualified.

What sort of minority are you referring to?

Lexington_Steele · 2003-01-13, 01:40 AM

Originally posted by MrVicchio

Here is my big issue on all of this, The real answer lies not in giving them "Perks" IMHO that is saying "You cant succeed without help, you arent good enough." That is demeaning, wrong and bigoted. I believe fully in "Here are the tools, take them and make a life for yourself, you don't need help, you can do it, just take the ball and run with it" Sadly, that is considered racist while the liberal view is considered PC good! WTF?

So you believe that they will all be able pull themselves up by their bootstraps? I am sure that some will, but most will not.

If I get a college scholarship I don't thing to myself, "Hey, they are demeaning me and I can do on my own." rofl

When I get a loan or a scholarship I don't think about what cosmic message the bank or school is trying to send me. I think about what I want to do in school or how I am going to use the money.

Personally, I don't see it as racist or not racist. I think the "you should be able to pull yourself up by your bootstraps" approach as a bit cut throat but still valid. I prefer the, "I see a social inequality and want to take steps to fix it."

I really hope you don't find it strange when minority groups aren't praising you for intentionally NOT trying to help them out.

Incompetent · 2003-01-13, 01:45 AM

omfg i actually think i agree with Navaron/MrVicchio on something not related to PS. I remember when i lived in New Orleans a female black teacher threw a desk at a kid in my little sisters class and they couldn't fire her because they would look like racists, i cannot stand that crap. But the sad fact is that racism is embedded in our society and as long someone even thinks they can exploit the fact that someone who lived 400 years ago had a bad life to get ahead, it is not going away.

Lexington_Steele · 2003-01-13, 01:46 AM

BTW the moment it becomes a political argument of Democrats v. republicans we are talking about something different.

Politics is rarely humanitarian and most democrats are for affirmitive action for the votes it gets them.

Doing what is right and playing politics are two very different animals.

Lexington_Steele · 2003-01-13, 01:49 AM

BTW how did we get from George Orwell to Afirmative action?

Incompetent · 2003-01-13, 01:51 AM

Thought police i believe.

MrVicchio · 2003-01-13, 06:25 AM

Originally posted by Lexington_Steele
So you believe that they will all be able pull themselves up by their bootstraps? I am sure that some will, but most will not.

If I get a college scholarship I don't thing to myself, "Hey, they are demeaning me and I can do on my own." rofl

When I get a loan or a scholarship I don't think about what cosmic message the bank or school is trying to send me. I think about what I want to do in school or how I am going to use the money.

Personally, I don't see it as racist or not racist. I think the "you should be able to pull yourself up by your bootstraps" approach as a bit cut throat but still valid. I prefer the, "I see a social inequality and want to take steps to fix it."

I really hope you don't find it strange when minority groups aren't praising you for intentionally NOT trying to help them out.

Dont you GET IT??? If you are given a scolarship, just because you are "x" minority, and not because you earned it...

How can I say this that would make sense to you... Look, what good is giving a kid that can hardly read a scolarship? A job to an unqualidied person, just because they are XX.

I think it boils down to YOU SEE them as down on thier luck, all falling by the way side. I see them being deprived of GOOD Schools, and REAL educations that forces them to have to rely on "favors" from those who would give them "helping hands" Oddly enough, its that same group that opposes meaningful reform in schools and school vouchers.... hmmm.....

Lexington_Steele · 2003-01-13, 12:49 PM

What is a voucher going to do for an inner city child? First they have to get into those private schools. Second, they would have to find a way to commute to said schools.

Just because someone gets a minority related scholarship does not mean they can't read.

Why do you assume that all the people recieving these benefits are a bunch of nincompoops. I think that is alot more demeaning than giving assistance.

If you have 9/10 people who got scholarships fail out, then you still had 1 that didn't. That is one more minority college graduate than their would have been without the assistance.

MrVicchio · 2003-01-13, 03:37 PM

Lex, go doa google search on the MILWUAKEE VOUCHER PROGRAM. That right there was started by a poor, single black mom in the inner city (She relaly was the spark that got it going) and lok at the SUCESS!)

Your example of 9/10 failing but one success. BS Liberal Feel Good waste of money Bigotry. 1 is not good enough, No I say thats an UTTER failure. It should be 6/10 MAKING IT. And where does this start, the schools. THATS where it starts. And thats where forr too many kids it fails.

Lexington_Steele · 2003-01-13, 04:04 PM

These vouchers means that the private schools are required to overlook a students prior school record, hence the less competant student gets into the private school. How is that different than offering minorities scholarships?

Why is ok to institute a type of affirmative action at the grade school level but not at the collegiate level?

After reading up on the Milwaukee Voucher Program I fail to see how this is really different than affirmative action which you seem to be staunchly against.

BTW with regards to the 1/10 scenario concerning college scholarships college scholarships, who lost money? The University offered it and then did not have to provide sevices for that student. It is not like the money magically dissapeared.

In fact, since there is apparently a going rate of failure for these students, the University can plan accordingly and admit more students than they normally would have, based on those rates.

University would be in the same finacial situation as it would have been otherwise, and one more minority student found success where they normally would not have.

MrVicchio · 2003-01-13, 04:12 PM

HOW THE F!@# do you relate Vouchers with affermitive action?? Vouhcers are for POOR kids in failing schools to have a chance at a good scool and to suceed. The only thing that is a requirement.. your parents are poor and you are in a bad school. Grades matter not one Iota.

BTW Those collage scholarships... think about this... you have lets say 1000 kids sign up for X collage. X collage has 100 spots open... but to maintain Diversity they allocate 25 slots to minorities right off the bat... bam.

Then they set aside another 25 slots for scholarships... Bam 50 slots gone.

Now the free 50 go to those that earned it.. period and right on.

Now, the nest 25 go yo JUST the top performing minorities....

Now the last 25 go to a certain group, reguardless of thier Academic potential.. and lets say 15 of those drop out thier first year...

Do you see a problem there? The discrimination? The denied cahne to one group wasted on someone else that wont succeed cause they arent ready to be in collage?

Sigh..

Lexington_Steele · 2003-01-13, 04:28 PM

Knowing the going rate of the minority drop out, the college allocates and additional 15 slots.

You see how this works. The college will accept and extra 15 "regular" applicants. You see it as 25 slots being unfairly given when 15 of them will drop out.

College acceptance boards are very aware of these rates, and the spots that the 15 dropouts left will have been filled in advance. If not in advance they will be filled with transfer applicants the next year.

As far as the comparison of vouchers to scholarships set aside for minorities: A scholarship like this often allows a less competant student into the university. With a voucher, a private school is going to allow a less competant student into the private school. How do you not see a similarity? Why is one ok and the other not?

Do you really feel that white middle class America is so unbearably repressed by these scholarship policies?

mistled · 2003-01-13, 04:50 PM

Originally posted by Lexington_Steele
Knowing the going rate of the minority drop out, the college allocates and additional 15 slots.

You see how this works. The college will accept and extra 15 "regular" applicants. You see it as 25 slots being unfairly given when 15 of them will drop out.

So why should they let these 15 in to start with?? Shouldn't the one in ten be able to get in via regular scholarships??

Just seems pretty discriminatory to me to assume that the minorities will fail by allocating 15 extra slots when you know you won't be able to keep everyone.

MrVicchio · 2003-01-13, 04:54 PM

Lex.. one tinsy weensy thing you missing about the vouchers... Scholastic Achievement, or LACK of it, has ZERO to do with who gets a voucher. It is all about parental income and schools over all performance. MY kids, would qualify based on my pay ATM.... Yes White kids DO get vouchers!

No, I do not feel threatened by the AA at collages, I think it just shows how muffed up the system is. Collages are about eduacting the best and the brightest. And whent he best and the brightest (NO MATTER WHO THEY" ARE OR WHERE THEY" CAME FROM) cant get into a college because they have to reserve a slot for a less able person because of thier skin color.. that offends me.