Upcomming Surge Changes! - Page 7

Vick · 2004-03-13, 12:39 PM

You guys are dumbasses, what newb tactics are you talking about that NC use so much??

Other empires have just as many surgiles, stop fixating.

My whole outfit has maybe one JH surgile in it, everyone else only uses it when driving.

Lartnev · 2004-03-13, 12:43 PM

Agile vs Rexo the rexo should technically win. But Rexo vs Infantry MAX and the MAX should win so erm......well....yeah

Basically if you want to get up close and personal, you should get Rexo as its the best means of accomplishing it. By no means is it the only way, but it's the easiest and most efficient. You then understand why Rexos can't drive many vehicles etc.

Krinsath · 2004-03-13, 12:44 PM

Originally Posted by Vick

I dont use th JH, but if you guys have tried it you would see it is only as good as a lasheror MCG in VERY close range. Not from the top of a stairwell to the bottom, no across a spawnroom, you gutta be right on them. Which is why you see so many surgiles, and why the surge change will really hurt the JH.

Perhaps if you didn't have Surgiles mucking things up and giving false effectiveness indicators (i.e. - the JH didn't get as many kills), you wouldn't be nerfed and nerfed and there would be an equal HA instead of the worse-than-the-Sweeper JH we now have...just a thought. I realize it doesn't matter to you as a Gauss user, but the point reamins.

Originally Posted by Vick

I only use the gauss, I have 10 load outs, and they all have a gauss. Infact, my main rexo suit is dual gauss rifles. Ive got surgile gauss, pilot guass, standard armor and gauss for boomering spawn rooms, bolt driver and gauss, ACEs and gauss, all kinds of stuff. So trust me when I know about the guass, I will take on anyone with it, the surgilest lasher or the most badass rexo MCGer. I have thousands of kills with it.

Yes, the Gauss is a wonderful MA weapon that does a lot of damage. What about the other 66% of the playerbase who don't have access to as effective of a weapon? The Pulsar is junk compared to the TR and NC HAs, and the Cycler doesn't have a fast enough TTK close up to make it.

Originally Posted by Vick

I have no problems killing these "warpers" unless maybe they are bunny hopping. I like to use surge to run away, drop boomers, race in and kill a guy then leave, all kinds of stuff I will no longer be able to do. Overall, I just think this is bullshit. I am not exploiting or trying to warp or whatever, I am a good player and I like the extra speed of surge.

1) You don't have the warping problem on your computer. Congratulations! Now, that does nothing to fix the problem for the rather significant number of people who DO have the problem.

2) They just make it so you have to slow down for a second to drop a boomer, not making it so you blow yourself up if you're surging.

3) If you are a good player, the change will affect you not at all (the same with any change, even broken ones...the lasher is overpowered atm with it's bugs...the good players still kill them). If they change surge and suddenly you can't compete, perhaps your assessment wasn't as accurate as you thought. If you're a Gauss user, it *really* shoudn't impact you other than taking away the spawn tactic which the Devs evidently don't feel is all that great (Pain modules were added for a reason and they're an almost direct counter to that strategy).

Originally Posted by Vick

Anyway, one last thing, those surgile JH guys are not winning because they warp or have a good gun. They are better players then you, face it.

Unless you are sitting at the other person's computer, you have exactly zero knowledge of how the game presented the surgile. Since you have exactly zero knowledge of the cirumstances of the battle, it therefore becomes impossible for you to know the relative skill of these players. If the same players who were surgiles before continue to have their successes, then yes chances are they were better. But if they were inherently better, they wouldn't be concerned about this minor change either.

Methinks the surgiles doth protest too much.

Originally Posted by Vick

No one even responds to my posts, is that because I am right and you wont touch it?

Asshats.

No, it's not because you're right, it's because some people make far more interesting points for debate, hence they're the ones I respond to. Eldanesh is at least trying to make coherent points rather than drawing from his own experience in game as that will NOT be the same across the 5000+ people who play this game. That is why the Devs tend to discount such reports from individuals and rely on cold, hard facts.

SuperBallz · 2004-03-13, 12:48 PM

Like little KIDS, "If I can't play noone else can either, oh, and i am taking my ball with me".

We Can Tell The Ones That Exploit The Surge Bug, and isnt Exploiting Against the rules?

Cancel Ur Accounts and save the whining for those that care.

The Surge Bug Needs To Be Fix.

It does give an unfair advantage, Ex.....

I am on dial-up(yes, i know) i average 400 ping(easy kill for HighSpeed Users), i drop on a tower and surge down killing 4-5 peeps, with sweeper. I was like WTF, It was like they couldn't see me or something. Without surge i may get one that is half dead.

I dropped it after a week cuz i was getting currupted by is ease of killing.

If anyne with horrid ping like mine well know, that it isnt helpful, damn right irritating, but i like PS.

BR18/CR2

Veteran · 2004-03-13, 12:55 PM

Wow, SuperBallz, you are a living contradiction.

An ICP fan who has a reasonable view of game balance, namely Surge.

I think I shall reevaluate my view of humanity now.

BDMJ · 2004-03-13, 12:58 PM

Thanks for the response Krinsath, but I already was aware of the fact that it was door bugs, and that working on someone else's code is difficult. I just didn't want to write as much as you are obviously prepared to write. The fact that it is difficult doesn't change the fact that the dev team is taking the easy way out now, and has shown a tendency to do so in the past. I believe they are competent, so they must not have enough people to deal with these problems.

I am against any change that limits the number of possible roles available to infantry. The rexo buff was great because it allowed heavy infantry to be a worthwhile combat role in terms of sheer effectiveness. This surge change makes combat agile much less effective, that is why I am opposed to it. The fact that the devs are taking the easy way out is all the more aggravating. Warping is a problem, but this is not the right way to deal with it.

Lartnev · 2004-03-13, 01:01 PM

Originally Posted by SuperBallz

Like little KIDS, "If I can't play noone else can either, oh, and i am taking my ball with me"..........

Nicely done

LimpBIT · 2004-03-13, 01:13 PM

I think i speak for most if not all infiltrators when i say this is crap.

Krinsath · 2004-03-13, 01:14 PM

Originally Posted by BDMJ

Thanks for the response Krinsath, but I already was aware of the fact that it was door bugs, and that working on someone else's code is difficult. I just didn't want to write as much as you are obviously prepared to write. The fact that it is difficult doesn't change the fact that the dev team is taking the easy way out now, and has shown a tendency to do so in the past. I believe they are competent, so they must not have enough people to deal with these problems.

I am against any change that limits the number of possible roles available to infantry. The rexo buff was great because it allowed heavy infantry to be a worthwhile combat role in terms of sheer effectiveness. This surge change makes combat agile much less effective, that is why I am opposed to it. The fact that the devs are taking the easy way out is all the more aggravating. Warping is a problem, but this is not the right way to deal with it.

A difficult change that takes time to implement is not a way to keep players happy. There are too many people demanding a "fix it now!" attitude that they can't go "well, we're working on things" because people don't care about progress, they care about results. Look at the infiltrators. They don't care that there are issues with their suits that are complex, they want them fixed. There have been a sharp decline in infiltrators the longer that problem has *nothing* done to it. If you played only to be an infiltrator, then you canceled your subscription which costs the Devs money.

They have to balance keeping the players happy with fixing the problem. Warping is evidently a major problem, and may not be fixable at all. Remove the ability to do damage while warping and at least you make the playerbase happier. They are not doing away with Surge, they are not reducing it's usefulness. They are merely preventing a bug from being exploited. There is no law saying you can't map your tilde to turn surge off and on and still have almost the same combat effectiveness, minus the warping.

That's the reason people are so mad at the people against the change, they're adding a whole 1 second to the equation. If you're winning by that narrow of a margin, then you need to back off of the "I'm just a super good player" claims. Exploits get fixed, that's the nature of things. Don't use something that can be exploited as an integral part of your tactics (note: that does not imply that you are knowingly using it to abuse the exploit) and you never have to worry.

BDMJ · 2004-03-13, 01:38 PM

Having surge active while the weapon is out is what makes it combat effective. One of the keys to using heavy assault successfully is to strafe side to side while moving forward and backwards. By turning surge on as you move forwards, and turning it off as you backpedal, you create a target that is hard to hit. Surge must be active while a weapon is out for this to work. Winning by 1 second is the rule for heavy assault. When every weapon has a ttk of less than 2 seconds between 0 and 5m, that second makes the difference.

teratravp · 2004-03-13, 01:54 PM

ugh... so i tried the trial anyway despite my doubts and how can you guys even play?

the lag is atrocious, worse then I ever saw at any point in beta. (although its not as dramatic, the game is simply never smooth now. that's the worse I've seen it. at least in the past you could go for totally smooth perfect periods and THEN have trouble. now it's just steadily low performing.) nerfs should be the least of the worries at the moment, getting the engine to even run at the least as well as has run in the past should be the development concern here... or maybe checking the servers because this is just plain bad latency. lots of skip, stutter, this is like playing on an extremely high ping server over 56k. I changed everything else, every graphic and sound variation and had identical poor performance on my high end system... and it has the exact symptoms of netcode trouble or bad servers so that's what it must be. I find it troubling that you guys have to pay a monthly fee for that.

BadAsh · 2004-03-13, 02:00 PM

BDMJ,

The reason this change was necessary is because the code correction you are speaking of is not a true option simply due to technological limitations. SOE pushed the technology envelope when coding this game and certain things just reached the point of complete saturation.

One thing specifically is this warping problem. To correct that the player prediction code and the collision calculations need to be tightened up. Doing this adds a lot of math that the servers must handle. Very quickly they reach a point where the servers simply can not keep up with the volume of players this game supports. So the math needs to be �loosened up� a bit. The balance they are trying to strike here is between warping effects and server side lag in medium to larger sized battles. If you add more math the warping goes away but battle lag gets worse. If you reduce the math the battle lag gets better but the warping gets worse.

SOE simply hit the technological limitation of the hardware and are in a position to make compromises. Other than trying to find an acceptable balance between warping and battle lag the only other real solution they have is to analyze game play and determine what can be adjusted there to help the situation. Player speed influences the warping so an adjustment to that is a reasonable and logical option. This is what they opted for and I agree with it 100% for the reasons listed below.

Stopping players from Surging while fighting will do several things that I see as positive for the game.

It will stop the warping glitch from being exploited and improve the gaming experience for everyone.

It will allow for further adjustments to help reduce battle lag.

It will further balance the powerful short ranged weapons in the game. The short range was designed to be a limitation on those weapons and the trade of was the massive damage they do once CQB is reached. Surge circumvented that limitation by greatly reducing the time you would have to spend at medium or longer ranges. This was an effective combination that one empire enjoyed for a long time while the other 2 empires had no such combination. This will help restore balance, which is a good thing.

PhoenixTypeX · 2004-03-13, 02:05 PM

I totally agree BadAsh and to those NC people saying that people should stop saying that they have noob surge tactics well it's true. It's also true they have buffed the lasher which was needed but they've done it too well and the bug is being fixed so shut up about that too. This surge fix has been wanted by the majority of the player base for so long, it will balance the game tremendously which is always a good thing.

Three cheers for the Devs !!!!!
Hurahhh
Hurahhh
Hurahhh

scarpas · 2004-03-13, 02:06 PM

i just use my surge to get around... i think ill keep it

PhoenixTypeX · 2004-03-13, 02:12 PM

me too good for me being a sniper as I can get up hills or across water quicker, or running away if I have to.